Rav Baruch Simon, Shlita

1

בס"ד

Rav Baruch Simon, Shlita

Hilchos Melicha, Shechita, and Assorted Topics, June Zman 5768

*Please note: These notes have not been reviewed by R’ Simon. They are the notes I took during the shiurim. Any mistakes should be attributed to me. Beni Krohn.

שיעור #1- 6.3.08/ 29 Iyar 5768

Issur Dam

I. Source of Issur

A. Gm Krisus 4b- 5 psukim that assur dam: Dam Chullin, Kodshim, Kisui,Eivarim, and Tamtzis (blood that drains out after animal is already dead).

B. Mishna Krisus 20B- machlokes whether chayav kareis for dam tamtzis. Chachamim- not chayav. R’ Yehuda is mechayev. We hold like chachamim.

- Only chayav for dam shehaneshama is teluya bo(ר"ת in Kesubos:Issur of taking blood on shabbos is netilas neshama b/c dam that taking out is shehaneshama teluya ba b/c person is alive).

C. Gm Krisus 21B- Dam Eivarim, Heart, etc. only b’lav, not kareis.

1. רש"י- b/c not dam hanefesh.

- R’ Sheishes- human blood isn’t nichlal in any of these issurim. Only time its assur is when its pireish (on piece of bread, in a cup). Lichora, problem of maris ayin.

2. רמ' MA 6:4- All these other kinds of dam (eivarim, tamtzis, etc.) not chayav kareis, but get malkus b/c not dam shehanefesh yotzei bo.

II. Dam eivarim shelo piresh/IsMelicha necessaryeven for raw meat?

A. Mishna Chullin 14A- If shecht on shabbos or YK, Kosher Shechita. Gm – this is acc to R’ Yehuda, not R’ Shimon, who holds that food that isn’t muchan before shabbos is assur on shabbos altz muktza.

1. תוס' Nisbin- ממ"נ can’t eat it, so who cares that it’s mutar!?

2 Answers:

- He was over the issur shabbos of meabeid and salted it.

**- He eats it raw and no need to do melicha if want to eat meat raw b/c only issur dam is when it’s pireish: Gm Chullin 111A- can eat liver just by pouring hot water on it to keep dam inside. And 112A- if cut meat on bread and dam comes out, the bread is assur but meat is kosher.

B. Gm Chullin 113A- If break the neck of the animal before the animal dies, the blood doesn’t come gushing out, so gm says you are machbid es habasar, gozel es habrios, and are mavlia dam in the eivarim (b/c since it’s heavier, will sell it for more than its worth b/c a lot of that weight is dam, not meat). Gm wants to know is this only an issur gezel or even an issur to eat? And gm leaves it as a teiku.

1. רשב"א Thb- Calls this dam shepeirish mimakom l’makom. And gm is asking if you can eat this meat raw. Mashma, that in normal situation can eat raw meat without melicha, and only when dam has been peirush mimakom limakom do we assur it. However, if would do melicha, for sure it would be mutar.

(Others have girsa, that gm wants to know if mutar to eat at all, and gm leaves that as a teiku, in which case this gm isn’t telling us that generally it’s mutar to eat meat raw).

2. רא"ה–Davka dam shepiresh ligamrei is assur, but if it moves mimakom limakom, not assur. B/c when are moleiach dam, obviously don’t get all of it out. Ela,

we are moleiach basar to extent that after pouring boiling water on it it would stop coming out (Check this). And even though for sure some dam is traveling on its way out when it is stopped. Ela vaday dam is only assur once its totally piresh.

3. רא"ש Chullin: 4 cases that have נ"מ based on this yesod.

(a) Case #1-7:11- Piece of meat is red b/c the animal had gotten a bruise mechaim, not called dam evarim shepiresh.

*Assuming that perish mimakom limakom is considered piresh.

(b) Case #2-1:19- Tzole basar, no need for melicha b/c the dam will come out and fall to the ground. And the dam that is left inside and moves around inside, that’s not called dam eivarim shepiresh.

**Apparently holding that piresh mimakom limakom is not called piresh!? What about in perek 7?!

- Drisha: Makes chiluk that if it moved meChaim, called dam shepiresh, but if happens after death, not called dam shepiresh.

(c) Case #3- 8:45- Basar nisbashel without any melicha. Need 60 in the tavshil kineged the dam.What about the original piece?

1- Yesh omrim:Assur b/c it was cooked without melicha.

2- רא"ש:Mutar b/c the dam was batel, and whatever dam moved around inside the basar isn’t a problem b/c its dam eivarim shelo piresh.

(d) Case #4-8:49- If use kli she’eino menukav to do melicha what’s din of meat?

1-Nimukei R’ Peretz: Whole chaticha should be assur b/c dam can’t come out at all b/c the whole area is backed up, and dam already started moving and couldn’t get out, so the whole piece is assur.

2- רא"ש: Only the part of the meat sitting in the dam/tzir will become assur b/c has din kavush, and that which moves around inside doesn’t assur the whole piece b/c it’s dspmml”m.

4. רמ'MA 6:12–ChiyuvMelicha even by raw meat. Gm never says that don’t need melicha by basar umtza. However, if chalto b’chometz, now can eat it w/out melicha.

(a) כ"מ- As long as the dam has the ability to be piresh, still assur until do melicha. Only once it loses the ability to come out, then mutar even without melicha.

D. Halacha Limaaseh

שו"ע 67:1-Only dam that’s assur is if it is yotzei lichutz or mimakom limakom (against רשב"א, רא"ש). Can eat raw meat without melicha.

69:18- Moleiach basar in kli she’eino menukav:

- מחבר: Only part in tzir is assur.

- רמ"א: whole piece is assur, v’hachi nohagim.

69:11- Bishul w/out melicha:

מחבר: everything is mutar if there is 60 (רא"ש).

רמ"א: yesh osrim that piece, but can be meikil l’tzorech orchim or l’kavod shabbos (Nimukei R’ Peretz).

III. Dam shebishlo

A. Gm Chullin 109A- not over on dam shebishlo, only issur dirabanan.

B. רש"יDenies this halacha in 2 places:

1. Chullin 109A- Cooked the heart with the dam inside.רש"י- Case where not chayav kareis is when it’s oaf (no kizayis). But if it was beheima, would be chayav. But ממ"נ, how can you be chayav kareish, you cooked it?!

2.Chullin 120A- Hardened heart רש"י: by cooking it until it gets gelled, get kareis. תוס': cooked it b’chama.

*So what’s pshat in רש"י?

C. Maadanei Asher- רש"י thought that gm was only a HA. But acc to the maskana, only talking about dam that is karush, that’s when eino over alav b/c can’t dip anything into it (see inside). But just being mivushal is not enough.

שיעור #2- 6.04.08/ ר"ח Sivan 5768

Hadacha Kamaysa

I. Source of din

A. Gm Chullin 113A- R’ Huna:Basar can only get rid of its dam w/ melicha and hadacha. Braisa says to do hadacha before and after melicha. But gm says not a machlokes, R’ Huna was talking about a case where the butcher already did the hadacha kamaysa, and if he didn’t then you have to do it yourself. But כו"ע are modim that need hadacha b4 and after.

B. רמ' MA 6:10- says do hadacha before and after, and then put it in boiling water.

II. Reasons for this din (at least 5 Pshatim)

A. ר"ן Chullin 42A- Always assume that whenever a piece of meat is being poleit, it cannot be boleia at the same time. Quotes two reasons for hadacha kamaysa:

1.רא"ה: If didn’t do hadacha kamaysa, would salt it, blood is coming out, but also blood caked up, left on the surface and nervous that after all the blood is done coming out, the blood that was on the surface will now melt and come into the chaticha and assur it b/c only while blood is coming out the chaticha can’t be boleia, but once its done, then the dam on the surface will seep in. Therefore, do hadacha kamaysa to get rid of the surface blood before we start.

**ר"ן doesn’t like it b/c says if that is your concern, then just do hadacha right afterwards b/c chaticha will be poleit as long as there is salt on it (even after official שיעור melicha), so once do hadacha to get rid of salt, that will get rid of the blood on the outside as well.

2.ר"ן: In order to soften the basar, will soften the outer blood, so that it won’t prevent the dam inside from coming out (really just says soften the basar, and this is explanation of the Pri Megadim).

B. Mordechai Chullin721-

1. If don’t do hadacha, when you put melach on the chaticha, first encounter will be with the surface dam, which will blunt the potency of the salt, so then when it seeps into the meat won’t be able to fully extricate the dam from the chaticha.

2. Just to soften up the meat, so that the dam will come out more easily. (Pri Megadim is upset with ש"ך who seems to equate this shita with that of the ר"ן).

C. Smak 205- If don’t do hadacha, but salt it first, the surface blood will be nivla immediately into the chaticha and is never able to come out. So if don’t do hadacha first, the piece will be assur forever after you put salt on it.

D. רא"שChullin 8:46- What if did melicha w/out hadacha. Can you rectify it later?

Normally have klal that dam is misrak sarik = since coming out with such a force, glides right off the meat, doesn’t get nivla in meat on its way out. רא"ש: there are those who say that no takana if didn’t do hadacha b/c don’t say dam misrak sarik in that scenario and dam will get nivla back into the meat. However, theSefer haTruma thinks that dam that goes in can come back out with melicha, so acc to him the salting afterwards can help.

III. Achronim

-Achronim only deal with two of these mehalchim: Either the Smak or the ר"ן (maybe 2nd pshat in Mordechai).

A. Pri Megadim (pesicha l’Hilchos Melicha)- Brings six reasons for hadacha rishona: And quotes the רא"ש as a separate mehalech.

B. שו"ע 69:1-

1.מחבר: Have to do hadacha before the melicha (and if butcher did it, eino tzarich lihadicho babayis).

(a) ש"ך 1- quotes different reasons: Acc to the Yesh omrim in Mordechai and theר"ן that just helps it be poleit better, if didn’t do it, do a hadacha and melicha again. However, acc to the Smak, no takana.

2. מחבר continues: if cut the meat into pieces after hadacha, need a new hadacha.

3. רמ"א: And if didn’t do it, k’ilu lo hudach klal.

(a) ש"ך 3- This shayla depends on the reasons for melicha. If hold like the Smak, that reason for hadacha is b/c of the dam on the outside, when cut the chaticha now have dam on side of the new chaticha and need to do hadacha again. However, if hold like ר"ן/ Mordechai, just to soften basar, now already softened (this is where chiluk btwn ר"ן and 2nd deia in Mordechai starts to come into play).

C. שו"ע69:2-

1. רמ"א: If only did minimal hadacha, only works bidieved. Also, if have 60 in chaticha kineged the outer blood, mutar bidieved (b/c also depends on machlokes ר"ן and Smak).

(a) ש"ך 14- B/c acc to those who want to soften basar won’t work, but acc to Smak, to get rid of outer blood, even minimal hadacha will be enough.

i. רע"א 69:1- What if the meat is very cold, do you have to use hot water? Also depends on this machlokes.

IV. Can you do hadacha on meat that’s frozen?

-ש"ך, Yam shel shlomo, chavas daas, all discuss this shayla.

Chavas Daas 69:5- Hadacha doesn’t work if it’s frozen.

V. Can you do hadacha with fruit juice (also taluy on whether hold like ר"ן or smak)?

A. רמ"אשו"ת–In Toras Chatas writes that can only use mei peiros for hadacha basraysa, mashma not for kamaysa, and shoel asked what’s the difference? Answers that mei peiros don’t have ability to soften as well as water.

B. ש"ך 69:30-רמ"א is against תוס' Chullin 33A!?

1. Mishna Chullin 33A-If shechted beheima, chaya, v’oaf and no dam comes out, ksheirim. And can be eaten with tamei hands and meat won’t be mikabel tuma(b/c not muchshar from the dam).

(a) תוס'dh Neechalin: Must be talking about tzli b/c if were doing hadacha, won’t it become muchshar likabel tuma?! And gives 2nd teretz, that it was hudcha in mei peiros which isn’t one of 7 mashkim.

**ש"ך 69:30 says that see from תוס' its clear that could do all the hadacha in mei peiros b/c if had to do hadacha kamaysa with water then this teretz doesn’t start.

***But limaaseh, the רמ"א in שו"ע paskens that can use mei peiros for Hadacha kamaysa as well, so only a problem with רמ"אשו"ת.

C. רע"א- doing hadacha on only one side. Also taluy on this shayla, but says that if do good hadacha on one side and hadacha miktzas on the other side will have covered all your bases (why?).

D. Maadanei Asher- brings 10 נ"מ based on this machlokes rishonim and discusses how מחבר and רמ"א each hold.

שיעור #3- 6.05.08/ 3 Sivan 5768

Inyanei Melicha

I. How much salt are we talking about?

A. Gm Chullin 113A- Basar doesn’t get rid of its dam unless you salt it “yafe yafe”, but not clear how much that is.

B. Gm Menachos 21A- Talks about the actual שיעור of melicha. HA: Need to heap on a mound of salt like the amount of teven you would use for making bricks, a lot. But then gm says no, just put salt on each side for the mizbeach, and Abaye says “v’chein l’kdeira”.

1. רשב"א thb 71A-

(a) Don’t have to make sure that every single spot on meat is covered with salt. But has to be so much that its not rauy l’achila b/c of all the salt, but not more than that.

(b) Only mitzva min hamuvchar to put it on both sides, but if only put it on one side that’s fine too. When want to salt a chicken on both sides would have to fill up in the underside and won’t stick so well, so if can’t do both sides its ok.

רשב"אשו"ת 265- Do you have to be moleiach from both sides?

- Not necessary. Consistent with what he said in Thb.

2. רא"ש Chullin 8:43/44- Argues on both points:

(a) Have to cover the whole surface.

(b) Chicken have to be moleiach even inside.

טור- quotes this as double machlokes btwn רשב"א and רא"ש.

Beis Yosef- Could say they’re not really arguing b/c רשב"א said don’t have to do it k’binyan, and that what he means when says don’t have to do kulo. But אה"נ on the base level maybe it does have to be totally covered. And when it comes to tarnigoles, maybe just saying bidieved kosher even if he didn’t do it inside, and maybe even the רא"ש assumed that way bidieved.

3. Mordechai – has to be eino neechal machmas molcho. And quotes story that s/one didn’t do melicha on inside of chicken and they assured.

4. Issur V’heter- thinks doing melicha on both sides is l’ikuva, if don’t do it, will assur the meat when you cook it, and also brings the story with chicken that wasn’t salted inside.

Missed something.

II. How long does the Melicha have to be?

A. רמ'- שיעור mil. (18 minutes).

B. Trumas HaDeshen (Dinei Issur v’heter, siman 167)-One hour. Should be dependent on how long it takes to do tzli on that particular piece of meat, but that gets too complicated, so the minhag became to do one hour, which will cover all meat. And you often find that in the gm they give an hour to go be milakeit eitzim and that’s why added an hour to issur chametz. But maybe it only takes 15 minutes? Ela they made a universal שיעור.

Brings another raya:Last korban of the day was the tamid bein ha’arbaim, and around 2:30, 3:30 they were closing up shop. This was on a regular day. But on Erev Pesach they started ealier, and was brought after the tamid shel bein ha’arbaim, so had to bring it earlier, 130 or 230, gave extra time for ppl to bring korban pesach. And erev pesach that was on Friday, when had to roast the Pesach before shabbos too, so brought the bein ha’arbaim around 12:30, 1:30. So he says you see that the whole korban pesach only takes an hour to be nitzle, so for sure these small pieces would have been nitzle in that amount of time. However, if running late and question of not having meat for orchim or shabbos, can rely on רמ' that its only k’שיעור mil, which is 18 minutes. (This is the source that שיעור mil is 18 minutes).

* שו"ע says that davening mincha gedola is only bidieved for this reason b/c really they always brought the tamid later, only on Erev Pesach brought it earlier. But minhag HaYeshivos became to do this lichatchila so as not to conflict with the middle of seder.

III. Halacha Limaaseh

A. שו"ע 69:4- salt it enough to cover the whole thing, and has to be eino neechal machmas molcho, but not more than that, and should do both sides, even chickens, but if only do any meat from one side, mutar. רמ"א: yesh osrim even bidieved no good, and that’s how we are noheig unless there’s some tzorech. However, this is only if you went ahead and cooked it. But if haven’t cooked it yet and it hasn’t been 12hrs yet, then do the other side. And if its already been 12 hrs just do tzli.

1. ט"ז- the רמ"א in 70 says can wait even 24 hrs. Why is this case different? Says that b/c in this case, since we have eitza of doing tzli then no need to be as meikil. However, in 70, already fell in some other blood, tzli is not going to help, so assume that get 24hrs, can be poleit for that long (Can be tzole even after 24 hours).

B. Pri Chadash 69:21,23- Tarnigoles that is only salted from one side, even מחבר will be mode that it doesn’t work b/c the chalal of the chicken is a hefsek between the top and bottom and will be k’ilu didn’t do any melicha at all on the bottom. Also mentions the same answer as the ט"ז to the stira from Siman 70.