10.5.SC Insulating Fluids Meeting Minutes

March 20, 2013;

Munich, Germany

Chair: Susan McNelly

Vice-Chair: Jerry Murphy

Secretary: C. Patrick McShane

10.5.1.Introduction/SC Member Roll Call/New SC IF Members

The Chair started the meeting with a welcome and polled the attendees to determine if the quorum requirements were met. Unfortunately the requirements were missed by just one. There were 22 members and 34 guests. Eight of the guests requested membership.

Guests requesting membership since F12 membership meeting:

Josh Herz

Jose Izquierdo

Min Jea Lee

John K. John

Guests meeting the requirements for membership status after the S13 meeting:

Dave Hanson

James Rowland

Robert Kinner

Jimmy Rasco

10.5.2.Approval of the posted minutes from Fall 2012

Due to lack of a quorum, the minutes approval motion could not be made.

10.5.3.Working Group and Task ForceSCReports and Submitted Unapproved Minutes

10.5.3.1.C57.104 – IEEE Guide for the Interpretation of Gases Generated in Oil – Immersed Transformers

WG Chair: Rick Ladroga, Vice-Chair: Claude Beauchemin, Secretary: Sue McNelly

The WG Report at the Sub-Committee Meeting: Presented by Claude Beauchemin:

The key topic discussed at the meeting was gas saturation and reviewing the method of “number crunching” of the very large data base.The WG has been active, including a meeting held in January. Confidentiality and access to the data received is still an issue. There is still a lot of work to be done with the data to make it user friendly.

There was no discussion or questions from the attendees.

The Minutes (unapproved) of C57.104 WG Meeting as Submitted:

C57.104 – IEEE Guide for the Interpretation of Gases Generated in Oil – Immersed Transformers

Tuesday, March 19, 2013

Munich, Germany

Minutes of WG Meeting

The meeting was called to order by Chair Rick Ladroga at 3:17pm. Vice Chair Claude Beauchemin and Secretary Susan McNelly were also present.

There were 30 of 94 members present. There were 29 guests, and 5 guests requesting membership. A membership quorum was not achieved; the membership list will be reviewed before the next meeting. Guests attending the WG meeting for the first time who request membership will be deferred until the next meeting attended.

Guests requesting membership were (those identified with an asterisk (4 of the 5) will be added as WG members):

Stephanie Denzer *David Murray *

Rainer Frotscher *V K Lakhiani

Zan Kiparizoski*

Agenda

  1. Welcome & Introductions
  2. Quorum Check
  3. Approval of Minutes from fall 2012 Milwaukee meeting.
  4. Chair’s Remarks
  5. Presentations
  6. Data - Claude Beauchemin – Full presentation was not completed
  7. Case Studies – Paul Boman – Time expired before this could be presented.
  8. Adjourn

The minutes from the fall 2012 Milwaukee, Wisconsin meeting were not approved due to a lack of quorum.

Chair’s Remarks:

The C57.104 Executive Leadership (Chair, Vice-Chair, and Task Force Leaders) team met in Newport Beach, California over the two day period of January 22-23, 2013. The following persons were in attendance:

Rick Ladroga, Claude Beauchemin, Dave Hanson, Michel Duval, Luiz Cheim, Arturo Nunez, Norm Field, Paul Boman. Paul Boman acted as Secretary for the meeting.

The primary agenda for the California meeting was to review the progress and status of the Data Task Force, specifically to lock down categories, classifications, and essentially to organize the data into a useful tool for the new Guide.

The group looked at the volume of work completed to date which is significant. Claude Beauchemin will make a presentation during today’s Working Group meeting today to illustrate some of the things we are looking at.

Some other significant issues came to light during the meetings in California, related to the data specifically. A concern was raised about the security of the data, which led to a discussion about data commercial value, security, protection, authorized use of the data, release of information, etc. An action item was developed to address these issues. Rick Ladroga took ownership of the action item. Dave Hanson offered to develop a list of concerns and suggestions as we move forward to develop a data protocol and authorized use policy.

Resolve

Rick Ladroga reviewed Dave Hanson’s draft work and discussed the various items, concerns, and suggestions for resolution. Rick then contacted the IEEE PES Transformers Committee Chairman, Bill Chiu, along with Sue McNelly (Insulating Fluids Sub-Committee Chair), and Tom Prevost via an email dated February 20, 2013, and advised those Executives of the recent developments within the Working Group. The email essentially contained an Executive Brief, and specifically requested that the executive management look very closely at this issue, and include it in the SC meeting in Munich. Rick Ladroga then spoke directly with Bill Chiu, Don Platts, Tom Prevost, and Sue McNelly prior to the meeting to advise them and bring them up to speed.

The SC meeting was held on Sunday, March 17, 2013 in Munich, Germany. The executive leadership of the Transformer Committee met at this meeting and the issues involving data were presented to the group for discussion and consideration. The following action items were agreed to and assigned as follows:

Data Storage, Archival, and Authorized Use of Data By and For the Working Group

Sue McNelly has been assigned to lead the development of a protocol to address this item. Specifically, the protocol will involve assigning responsible parties to have control of the data repository, which will probably include the IEEE PES Transformer Committee Chair, Insulating Fluids Subcommittee Chair, and Working Group Chair at a minimum. These individuals will have authorization to approve access of the data repository to WG representatives who demonstrate need. The document is intended to be a living document, and is expected to grow in size as time goes on. Sue will establish a method of data storage with the IEEE and their facilities. The data will then be loaded onto IEEE servers for archiving and security purposes. The data repository will be accessed upon an as-need basis only, and will updated accordingly. The data repository will also include an archival history log, which at a minimum, will record the date the data is accessed, by whom, purpose, actual work done, date of newly archived revision, and revision number. The new revision data, and the previous revision data shall always be maintained, i.e. Rev 16 & rev 17, then a new revision is made and the data is updated. Revision 17 & 18 are stored, and Revision 16 can be deleted, if necessary, but the repository must have at a minimum the most recent revision along with the new revision. Rick offered to help Sue work on the action item if she needs help. The deadline for completion of this action item is the Fall 2013 IEEE PES Transformers Committee meeting in St Louis.

Data Contribution and Use Policy

Tom Prevost has been assigned the lead role to develop a policy to address the need for an organized set of procedures that can be utilized by all interested groups within the Transformer Committee, including but not limited to C57.104, C57.106, C57.139, factory Heat Run, etc. Tom will address the commercial, collection, security, protection, and use issues that the group has identified. Rick offered to help Tom and his task Force to complete the action item. It is due and expected no later than the fall 2013 meeting in St Louis.

Work will continue within the Working Group, while simultaneously working to develop these policies and procedures. It has been duly noted that the PAR for the C57.104 Guide shall expire in December 2014.

Presentation – Data Analysis to date

By M Duval, N Field, J Dukarm, L Cheim, L Lin, and C Beauchemin

Presented by Claude Beauchemin

Factors influencing 90 Percentile

What parameter influence 90% value

  • Age
  • MVA
  • kV
  • %O2

To evaluate the influence of each parameter, the data was subdivided into groups according to each parameters values. One parameter at a time was studied.

All data sources were combined for each group and the percentile computed. Results are as follows:

The following Tables were shown:

Age Table

MVA Table

kV Table

%O2

Claude indicated that there was a tremendous amount of effort to develop the above tables. The tables show results for the 90 percentile values for each of the categories shown.

The tables were not built on a theory of explanation. The effort was mearly to look at whether size, age, etc matter.

A question on why %O2 was used was asked. Claude indicated that when he reviewed this, he started seeing significant differences due to whether a unit was a free breathing type or sealed tank design. So when the larger database was available, he felt it would be worthwhile to further study this.

Fredi Jacob indicated that there is one parameter that influences gas generation rate is the loading factor. Claude and Rick indicated that this data is just not available. The documentation for the data is fairly poor in many cases. Rick indicated that this was a good point and that the guide would recommend that this type of information be tracked for future data collection as well as other parameters.

Comparison of 90% Spread Tables

Comparison of 95% Spread Tables

Observations:

When data is divided according to characteristics such as %O2, Age, Power, and Voltage, large variations between sub populations were observed.

The largest variation were with O2, followed by Age, MVA and with the smallest variation by voltage.

Use of statistical values, such as 90 percentile, will need to be qualified by a more precise description of the population used as reference. Multi-factors selection will likely be required. Example: Division by %O2 by Age.

The following Tables were shown:

90% O2 and Age Table

Comparison90% O2 and Age Table

For given equipment, this table is closer to actual situations than Table 1 in the present Guide. However, the tables have inconveniences, such as they are difficult to read, indicate a false sense of precision, and need further subdivision.

Simplification will be required, such as grouping to reduce the number of categories and rounding of values.

The following Tables were shown:

90% O2 and Age Table

Light rounding Table

Heavy rounding Table

Reducing subdivision Table

Tom Prevost indicated that he didn’t like the direction that this Guide is going. He indicated that our goal needs to be very simple. He indicated that we should have an open breathing and closed breathing table. Claude indicated that it will likely not so simple to do this. The comments indicated that some practical way to present this and provide recommendations on values for the Guide. Claude indicated he definitely agrees that we need to try and simplify it, but it will not be easy to do.

There was considerable further discussion on how to best approach a manageable way to present the information in the Guide.

Bill Chiu indicated that his sense is that we are too early in the process as to a direction that will be taken. He indicated that hopefully as we continue on this path in evaluating the data that we will be able to move more in a direction of simplifying the data results.

Rick cautioned that we can’t make operability decisions for the field. We can only help them to make that decision by providing some general guidelines.

Time ran out before Claude could finish his presentation.

A comment was made that a 90th percentile value will still not guarantee that a unit will not fail that falls within this range.

Rick welcomed feedback and comments from people be sent to him.

The meeting was adjourned at 4:30 pm.

Rick Ladroga

WG Chair

Claude Beauchemin

WG Vice-Chair

Susan McNelly

10.5.3.2.C57.106 - Guide for the Acceptance and Maintenance of Insulating(Mineral) Oil - Chair: Bob Rasor
The WG Report Given at the Sub-Committee Meeting: Presented by Bob Rasor:

The WG met but without a quorum. Three sections of the draft document were reviewed. There are many more sections to go through, so the WG Chair is working on ratcheting up review progress. Bob mentioned that even the title of the Guide created a lot of discussion. Another topic of significant discussion is whether or not to re-include value limits using ASTM D877 Dielectric Breakdown Voltage Testing. If re-included in the revised Guide, should the test be limited to new oil or used in other tables. Further discussion is needed to determine which test limit tables D877 would still be relevant.

The Minutes (unapproved) of WG Meeting as Submitted:

Tuesday 19March2013

8 a.m. to 9:15 am

The meeting was called to order by Chair Bob Rasor at 8:00 am. Secretary Claude Beauchemin was present to help run the meeting in the absence of vice chair Jim Thompson. The roster was passed out and it was asked for the members (28 total on the roster) to raise their hands. With only 10, we did not have a quorum.

There were 33 attendees by the end of the meeting with 14 members – 1 short of a quorum. The following 6 people indicated they would like to become members:

  1. Dieter Dohnal
  2. Dharam Vir
  3. V.K. Lakhiani
  4. Derek Baronowski
  5. Mike Lapota
  6. Roberto Asano

Minutes from the Milwaukee meeting were not voted upon due to a lack of quorum. Bob presented an introduction and review of the current version’s Scope and Purpose. It was noted that there are some suggested changes but it is too early to adjust the PAR as there could be more changes.

It was clarified that the PAR will last 4 years if ideally done without an extension. It was stated that even though we have met 10 different times between meetings and phone conferences, the progress for 1 year is slow and more aggressive progress is needed to make this goal. TF teams can be created to address sections that do not require the entire group’s input – such as definitions.

Keeping in mind that without a quorum, there were no final draft decisions made, the draft document with track changes was reviewed with the following discussion points:

  • The title itself was thought better to include some current changes in other groups for wording consistency. This led to a long discussion. Eventually, tentatively, we agreed to change the Title of the Guide. Instead of “Insulating Liquid”, the Guide should use “Mineral Oil Insulating Liquid”.
  • A further discussion was concerning the nomenclature “Liquid Immersed” This was challenged by some, as this is an oil guide and the transformer nomenclature may not be necessary.
  • The D877 test is being kept in Table 1 – as many of the buyers use ASTM and also that particular test as part of their specification. Move D877 into the first box in Table 1 along with the D1816 test.
  • There was a lengthy discussion on the inhibitor values in Table 1 and Table 2. Minimums in table 1 are not used by refineries so those values are to be removed. It is up to the refineries to meet the acceptance requirements for oxidation stability. They can however be listed in the agreement between the owner and the oil supplier.
  • Table 2 keeps the minimums for Type II oil and add a note that the owner is to refer to the supplier for this information
  • Oil in Table 2 to is new oil, but there was a discussion that once it is in the transformer it is technically not new oil. If we remove the word “New” from the Table 2 title, does this mean manufacturers can use used oil if it meets the criteria? That was not the intent and wording can be added to the
  • There was discussion about the tables and who uses them for what reasons. A suggestion was made that for the next meeting, we should first look at the tables and see if they really accomplish what we want --- rather than revising the existing tables.

Time was out – a motion was raised to dismiss and it was seconded.

Meeting was adjourned at 9:20 am.

10.5.3.3.C57.130 Trial-Use Guide for Dissolved Gas Analysis During Factory Temerature Rise Tests for the Evaluation of Oil-Immersed Transformers and Reactors. WG Chair Jim Thompson

The C57.130 WG Report Given at the Sub-Committee Meeting: Presented by Sue McNelly:

The SCIF Chair stated that no meeting was held for this WG and indicated that The PC57.130 straw ballot is in process. It is being reviewed and will be discussed at an interim teleconference meeting before the St. Louis meeting and then again at the F13 St. Louis Transformer Committee meeting. Some negatives have been received, some of which will require time to resolve, however Jim Thompson expects to complete the project on time.
10.5.3.4.C57.139 - Guide for Dissolved Gas Analysis of Load Tap Changers
WG Chair: David Wallach, Secretary: Sue McNelly:

The C57.139 WG Report Given at the Sub-Committee Meeting:Presented byDavid Wallach

The discussion at the WG meeting included reviewing the intended focus of the revision of the guide. To They are looking at an hybrid approach factoring in both the Triangle method and a new anagram discussed in a recent technical article. Information is available on the TC web site.Their goal is to complete the work in 2014.