TUESDAY, DECEMBER 7th, 1999
--- Upon commencing at 10:05 a.m.
--- Accused present
THE REGISTRAR: Are counsel satisfied that all members of the jury are present?
MS. BAIR: Yes. Thank you.
MR. McKECHNIE: Content.
MS. MULLIGAN: Yes. Thank you.
THE COURT: Ms. Bair?
MS. BAIR: Thank you, Your Honour.
This is Detective Inspector Glenn Miller.
GLENN CRAIG MILLER, sworn
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. BAIR:
Q. Detective Inspector Miller, you're still with the Ontario Provincial Police, sir?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you have the same job today as you had the last time you attended?
A. That is correct.
Q. Welcome for your return engagement.
A.Thank you.
Q.We'll be very restricted, sir, in reply evidence to specific points. It won't be broad-ranging at all.
The first thing I'd like to do is have you watch this videotape, please.
--- Videotape played
MS. BAIR:
Q. You've already testified, sir, that you were part of Project Eliminator; is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Your role was the undercover drug purchaser from Mr. Stewart and other members of his organization?
A. That is correct.
Q. This videotape, sir, you watched it in court and you watched it before; is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. And can you identify for the jury, please, the date in which this was made?
A. Yes, that was on the 16th of October, 1990.
Q. And I do not believe that that is written on the transcript that is before you which is Exhibit 94. I wonder if you could just write the date on that.
And are you aware of the circumstances under which this videotape was made, sir?
A. Yes I was.
Q. Can you tell the jury, please?
A. Yes. It's -- the videotape that I just finished watching is a result of a hidden video camera and a hidden listening device that was placed inside of a hotel room, it was a Webb's hotel room on Carling Avenue in the city of Ottawa and the two people that are on this particular tape, the person that was closest to me that was doing the majority of the talking is Mr. Rob Stewart who is the individual who is seated in the prisoner's box wearing a tie, and the other individual is the police agent Mr. Denis Gaudreault.
Q. Thank you very much. And I'd ask you to listen to this audiotape now, sir, and I'm placing before you the transcript that goes with Exhibit 293.
--- Audiotape played
MS. BAIR:
Q. And are you familiar with that conversation and can you identify the participants in it, sir?
A. Yes I can. I'm part of that conversation as well as Mr. Rob Stewart and also Mr. Denis Gaudreault and that conversation took place on the 6th day of December, 1990 and it was made as a result of a listening device that was placed inside of a hotel room, the Journey's End hotel room on Rideau Street in the city of Ottawa.
Q. Now both of these tapes have been used in the cross-examination of Mr. Mallory, sir. So now they're just formally identified by you.
MS. BAIR: And I would ask to make the video which was promised to be forthcoming on the last occasion, Your Honour, I'd ask that it now formally be entered as an exhibit, an adjunct to Exhibit 294 I believe.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. BAIR: Is the audiotape already an exhibit? Thank you. And that will be 293 I believe.
THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
MS. BAIR:
Q. Was that true, sir, when you said to Mr. Stewart on that tape "I'm not good with guns"?
A. No, that's not true.
Q. You testified on an earlier occasion, sir, and indicated to the jury that your total contact with Mr. Robert Stewart during this project was what?
A. It was approximately seven occasions for a total period of time of approximately less than 10 hours.
Q. You certainly weren't together with Mr. Stewart from '84 to '90?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Did he provide an apartment for you?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Pay for your hotel room?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he buy you dinner?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did you develop a relationship with Mr. Stewart over that 10 hours and seven occasions?
A. I developed, it would be a long-term business relationship with Mr. Stewart.
Q. A long-term business relationship?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it a close personal friendship in addition to that, sir?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Now you've already given evidence to the jury concerning how Mr. Stewart's drug organization operated. You've told them about the roles involved, the practices involved, the security measures, much of which you've indicated derived from Mr. Stewart's own words.
A. That is correct.
Q.All right. How reluctant or willing was Mr. Stewart to share this information with you?
A. Mr. Stewart was extremely talkative on all occasions that I was with him.
Q. Was he reluctant at all to share this information with you?
A. No, he was not.
Q. Mr. Mallory has testified, sir, that he was Mr. Stewart's sole debt collector, that he knew very little of
Mr. Stewart's suppliers or business practices in general and that the information that he, Mr. Mallory, had as the sole collector was provided to Mr. Mallory by Mr. Stewart on a need-to-know basis. Is that the approach that Mr. Stewart took with you, sir?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Is it in fact consistent with his approach as you observed it throughout your contact with him?
A. It was not consistent with that approach at all.
Q. The information that was provided to you, sir, did you need to know it?
A. No, I did not.
Q. In order to make volume or small drug purchases from Mr. Stewart was any of this information neces-
sary?
A. No, it was not.
Q.Did you have to drag it out of him?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you in fact elicit it?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You've had exposure to this organization, sir, sufficient to tell us the scale of the organization, I believe you did on the last occasion indicate that it was a large-scale drug dealing organization; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. You also indicated that Mr. Stewart dis- cussed weapons with you being guns and dynamite and grenades and the necessity to "pack" when shipments reached a certain volume.
A. That is correct.
Q. Now Mr. Mallory has testified before this jury that he, Mr. Mallory, did not use guns in his role as the sole collector for this large-scale drug organization. And let me read you, if I may, an extract from his transcript, page 53 for my friends, the 8th of November of 1999, page 53. The bottom of the page:
"Q. That day when you went to the house to take the car were you armed in any way?"
And this is in reference to Jamie Declare's car being repossessed.
"A. No. No. I'd like to get something straight there, with Rob Stewart, for Rob Stewart never had a gun, never. He would never let me have a gun.
Q. And why wouldn't he let you have a gun?"
I should've made it clear that this is in chief with his lawyer Mr. McKechnie asking the questions. The answer:
"A. Well that wasn't his way, you know. He just said 'Listen you're' -- he's even stopped me from slapping guys sometimes when he came in, you know, and like we'd go in together I'd say 'Well me I'm gonna give this guy', you know, 'a good slap' or something. 'No, no, no, don't do that, Rick. Don't do that', you know."
That, sir, is an extract from Mr. Mallory's testimony. You have heard that guns were not Rob Stewart's way. Is that your expe- rience with Mr. Stewart, sir?
A. No, it was not.
Q. As an expert have you any experience with drug dealing organizations of the stature of Mr. Stewart's disavowing weapons and their use?
A. No, I have not.
Q. What role do weapons play in such organi- zations, sir, and why?
A. The role that weapons play in large-scale drug organizations is for protection, for intimidation, for threatening, for collection of debts.
Q.And without the use of weapons, sir, what recourse is there for collection?
A. There is no other lawful way of collecting a drug debt. It's a lawless society, a drug organization.
Q. Now how long, sir, would you expect an organization involved in dealing drugs to survive, I should say an organization of this size, to survive without the use of weapons and guns?
A. Definitely an organization this size would not survive without the use of weapons.
Q. As a police officer, sir, would you ever consider attending at a raid or a takedown of an organization such as this without being armed?
A. Most definitely not.
Q. And why would that be?
A. Due to my experience in executing search warrants on organizations of this size, generally weapons are found on the site or on the people that we're about to arrest.
Q. There were arrests made in this case, sir. What sort of approach was taken to police security on those occasions?
A. On those arrests complete police tactical units were used to effect the arrest on this investigation.
Q. And during the negotiations, some of which we've -- well, one of which we've heard on the audiotape, nego- tiations in which you yourself were involved, sir, was there any security?
A. Yes there was.
Q. And what sort of security?
A. On all the transactions and meeting that took place with this particular organization, in particular with Mr. Rob Stewart, I had a full tactical unit that was in place in close proximity.
Q. And was that based on your expectations of this organization?
A. Yes it was.
Q.All right.
MS. BAIR: I think those are all my questions.
Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. McKechnie?
MR. McKECHNIE: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. McKECHNIE:
Q. Inspector, you indicated that you had seven occasions in which you had contact with Mr. Stewart in this operation?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. And that's where your knowledge of this organization comes from.
A. That's correct.
Q. And also you were a spectator at the video in another room somewhere when the video was being done of Mr. Gaudreault and Mr. Stewart together.
A. Well actually the first time that I've seen that particular video was this morning and then in the court- room here.
Q. You've never seen it before?
A. I don't recall that I have seen the video.
Q. You weren't in another room somewhere when that was being done with a closed-circuit connection?
A. Certainly I wasn't, no.
Q. Okay. So in all that time were you ever conscious of Mr. Mallory being involved at that time in Mr. Stewart's organization?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. And did he -- we've heard a mention of Mr. Mallory on this tape but you hadn't seen this tape until today, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Well you just testified as to what date it was done and everything. How do you know that?
A. Well I know because I believe that's a portion, only a portion of a conversation when I watched this morning because the following day I ended up going back to that same hotel room that was videoed and was wired and I did transact a large purchase of hashish from Mr. Stewart and from another individual.
Q. So you haven't seen this or anything, you're just taking their word for it that it was the same day, then, I take it.
A. Well I believe it showed ---
Q.Oh, it shows the date on there.
A.--- I witnessed the date right on the tape.
Q. I see. And so you have no knowledge, then, as to what part or what role, independent knowledge, what role Mr. Mallory had in this organization ---
A. No.
Q. --- that you're dealing with. So you don't know whether or not -- what his relationship was with Mr. Stewart for example.
A. I can't testify to that.
Q. And you had no knowledge as to what rela- tionship, personal relationship they may have had, how Mr. Stewart treated Mr. Mallory or anything like that?
A. I'm unable to testify on that.
Q. So you're just testifying from your general knowledge of drug operations and you can't tell us anything about whether or not it was unusual for Mr. Mallory not to have knowledge of what Mr. Stewart was doing.
A. Well, when I guess we speak about general knowledge I think my knowledge of being involved in undercover operations at a fairly high level is fairly specific.
Q. And how many operations have you dealt with? How many other organizations other than Mr. Stewart's have you dealt with?
A. How many large-scale?
Q. Yeah.
A. I would say large-scale investigations where the investigations would've taken me from -- anywhere from three months to a year to a year and a half, approximately, multi-kilo level of this size, probably five, at least five.
Q. Okay. And that's all in this area or is it in the Ottawa area or is this Ontario generally?
A. Well throughout Ontario, the province of Ontario, in Quebec and in the United States but they're all originating from -- geographically within the Province of Ontario.
Q. And you heard -- on that tape you heard Mr. Stewart saying that he wouldn't give guns to Mr. Mallory.
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And in your experience is there any- thing unusual about that, about somebody not wanting their collector to use guns?
A. Yeah, I find that unbelievable personally, ---
Q. Okay.
A. --- that statement.
Q. Unbelievable or unusual?
A. I find it I guess unusual, unbelievable, surprising to me.
Q. But Mr. Stewart is saying this to Mr. Gau- dreault. He has no reason there that you know of to lie to Mr. Gaudreault about that.
MS. BAIR: That's not a question.
MR. McKECHNIE:
Q. You said you don't believe Mr. Stewart when he's saying that on the video. That's what you've just said, you don't believe him.
A. As far as Mr. Mallory ---
Q. Yes.
A. --- not having or doing what he's saying? No.
Q. And the reason you don't believe him is because of your experience.
A. From my experience in dealing with business relationships at that level within drug organizations and partnerships that are formed between people at that level, yes.
Q. And so if Mr. Stewart was telling the truth then, the relationship between Mr. Stewart and Mr. Mallory would be an unusual one in the drug business; is that correct?
A. I find the whole drug business as being unusual and it's specific to each organization.
Q. So it's hard to make general rules as to how they operate.
A. There's certainly an operating theme that exists with some consistency amongst organizations but you're dealing with personalities and people and everybody is different.
MR. McKECHNIE: I have no further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MULLIGAN:
Q. Sir, I take it everything that you testified to on the previous occasion under oath you stand by all that evidence, correct?
A. Over the past few years?
Q. Everything in this trial that you've tes- tified to under oath.
A. Yes.
Q. In April, I think it was 8th, 9th, 13th, 14th, 1999.
A. Okay. Yes.
Q. You don't want to change anything that you testified to before.
A. I testified over a long period of time but no, I don't have a need to do that.
Q. You told the truth.
A. I told the truth, yeah.
Q. Okay.
Ms. Bair played for you two tapes, a videotape and an audiotape, and this was -- at least on one occasion it was your conversation along with Mr. Gaudreault about guns -- right? -- on the one occasion?
A. Okay. Specifically can you make a reference point for me, please?
Q. Yeah. December 6th, 1990. Do you have a copy of it?
A. Yes I do.
Q. Okay. Mr. Stewart the first line on this excerpt says "he wants a machine gun for Christmas", that's his son, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And he tells you he brought him out on the weekend, "I bring him out on the weekend I had him shooting the machine gun", right?
A. Yes.
Q. "Yeah a friend of mine has this nice little well he's got a bunch of guns there", clearly he's talking about someone else having a bunch of guns.
A. Right.
Q. Did you get the impression he was talking about taking his little boy out to his friend's place in the total context of the conversation?
A. I did, as far as shooting a machine gun.
Q. And he talks about how his friend "has got a nice little 22 it's fixed up on a semiautomatic when he's converted in a case" I don't know what that means. He talks about how that gun screws together. He talks about his son liking guns, having a pellet gun and a pellet handgun, right?
A. Yes.
Q. He talks again going to his friend's place and before he gets to his friend's place his son wanted to buy a gun book?
A. Correct.
Q. He's talking about his friend paying for the gun book, see in the middle or the bottom three-quarters of 2847?
A. Can you start that paragraph off, please?
Q. Sure. "Stewart: Ya 5 bucks".
A. Okay. I've got you, yes.
Q. I'll just read it:
Ya 5 bucks he got 5 bucks ya know he knows you don't go ya got 5 bucks they don't go for a dollar, but anyhow so I'm out at my friend's place and he brings my friend to this gun book he goes to the store and he's at the store other kids want comedy he wants a gun book he has his own little a pellet gun, and pellet handgun and stuff like that he wants a wants a gun book, so he brings to my friend and my friend pays for it, then he says I got something to show ya so he the guy's got some nice sawed off like you know like not sawed off pistol grip shotguns eight shots like