ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION
GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION
Brisbane Magistrates Court
Level 4, 363 George Street,
Brisbane, QLD, 4000
On Tuesday, 22 September 2015 at 10.00am
(Day 2)
CFMEU QLD - DOCUMENT DESTRUCTION
Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC
Counsel Assisting: Ms S McNaughton SC and
Mr T Prince
Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors
.22/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 65
Transcript produced by DTI
1 <DAVID ARTHUR HANNA, on former oath:
2
3 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton?
4
5 MS McNAUGHTON: Mr Hanna, is going to continue giving
6 evidence this morning. I presume he is subject to his
7 previous oath.
8
9 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
10
11 Q. You understand that, Mr Hanna?
12 A. Yes.
13
14 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON CONTINUING:
15
16 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, yesterday I was asking you about
17 matters arising out of destruction of documents?
18 A. Yes.
19
20 Q. I played you some extracts from a recording of
21 a conversation you had with Mr Skourdoumbis?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. Can I just ask you some matters in relation to that.
25 Just go back to some of those matters. Can I ask the
26 witness, please, to be provided with the extract of the
27 transcript of conversation which was MFI-2. If you could
28 please go to page 2.
29 A. Yes.
30
31 Q. Do you see about a third of the way down the page:
32
33 I've shown Michael a receipt from the tip
34 truck company that took away this to
35 Michael Ravbar CFMEU.
36
37 A. Yes.
38
39 Q. Can I ask you again, is there such a receipt?
40 A. Yes.
41
42 Q. Do you have that receipt?
43 A. No.
44
45 Q. Where is that receipt?
46 A. I believe - when the truck came and went, there was
47 a docket done which went back to Harrington Excavations
.22/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 66 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 which was the company that I organised the truck from.
2
3 Q. What was the name of the company?
4 A. Harrington Excavations. I organised the truck through
5 them. At some point they posted me an invoice. I took
6 that to the office and passed it to the accounts. It
7 stayed there for Michael to sign off on it and then at
8 later days, I was paid cash in an envelope to pass on to
9 Harrington Excavations, which I did. I later went back -
10 and that was so the docket could be anywhere in terms of
11 the accounts, but still there. At a later date when
12 Michael Ravbar was putting allegations against me about
13 some other matters, the IVF matters, I had a view that
14 I should have something that sort of protects myself and
15 give me better negotiations in terms of my position, so
16 I went - I drove out to Harrington Excavations and asked
17 for a copy of that invoice, which she gave me a copy of the
18 invoice. I noted that it was made out just to
19 "David Hanna" and I said, "Well, it should have been
20 CFMEU". She wrote on it "CFMEU" and I took the copy.
21
22 Later, prior to going down to the Secretary's meeting
23 in Sydney, I changed the document. I deleted my name from
24 it and I put on Michael Ravbar's name and CFMEU and
25 I showed people.
26
27 Q. Who did you show?
28 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure if I showed Dave Noonan or
29 not, but I certainly had discussions with Dave.
30 Michael O'Connor had a glance at it and that was,
31 you know - I think that's about it.
32
33 Q. When I asked you this yesterday you said that you
34 hadn't had a receipt, that you hadn't shown anyone, and
35 that you were embellishing, so why have you changed your
36 evidence?
37 A. Ah, I had an opportunity to get my thoughts together
38 overnight. It was quite a big week last week and yesterday
39 and so my mind wasn't set on that matter, it was set on
40 others, other matters, the previous matter, so I've had an
41 opportunity overnight to go through that. Sorry, can I
42 just say from that document that I changed the names on,
43 once I resigned from the Union I ripped that document up
44 and I threw it in the rubbish.
45
46 Q. Why did you do that?
47 A. It was no further use to me as I no longer worked for
.22/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 67 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 the Union.
2
3 Q. In terms of anyone you showed, you say that Mr Michael
4 O'Connor had a glance at it, is that what you say?
5 A. I was talking about it. It was on the same day the
6 Secretaries meeting was with the coffee shop downstairs.
7 He was doing some other paperwork while we were upstairs
8 and I left that meeting because they were discussing the
9 matter that I was involved in, so I went downstairs to have
10 a cup of tea and I was talking to Michael and I was quite
11 angry and - quite angry at the time over the situation and
12 I was venting and I pulled it out of my pocket and said,
13 "Look, I've even got this", you know, words to that effect,
14 and then put it in my pocket. So he didn't really - I
15 wouldn't say he had a close look at it. He put in his
16 hands or it stayed in my hands and I simply just showed the
17 name where it said "Michael Ravbar, CFMEU" and then put it
18 back in my pocket.
19
20 Q. When you were having that conversation where you were
21 quite angry and you were venting --
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. -- was the conversation about the subject of the
25 docket?
26 A. No. The conversation was about - I can't believe
27 Ravbar is trying to cut off my head over the IVF matter and
28 it was - you know, because, in my view, he was more worried
29 about his own position in his election next year, and saw
30 me as a threat and wanted to - you know, get me out of the
31 way whatever way he could, that's my view, so my view was
32 if he's going to, you know, move me on, well, it's time
33 that he can go too and leave it over to the younger blokes
34 in the Union to take over.
35
36 Q. So you produced this docket from your pocket?
37 A. Yes, pocket or bag, it was on me.
38
39 Q. Wherever.
40 A. Wherever.
41
42 Q. Did you give any indication to Mr O'Connor as to what
43 that document related to?
44 A. Yes. I did relate to that, you know, we've removed
45 documents from the office on 1 April.
46
47 Q. Can you tell the Commission, just in relation to this
.22/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 68 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 conversation, what you said and what he said, that is,
2 Mr Michael O'Connor, if anything, in relation to document
3 destruction in the context of you producing this document
4 then?
5 A. Yeah. Michael really didn't make a comment. He just
6 sort of shook - raised his eyebrows and shook his head as
7 in disbelief, you know, that I was going to that level, and
8 then I was called upstairs, so it was a very brief moment.
9
10 Q. What did you say to him? What were the words that you
11 used? Can you just repeat that? What did you say to him
12 about this topic?
13 A. I can't believe that, you know, Michael's coming after
14 me. You know, we - I've done what he's asked us to do in
15 the earlier parts, you know, looked after - to my point,
16 done the right thing and here he is repaying me by trying
17 to chop my head off.
18
19 Q. Did you mention the words "documents" or "destruction"
20 or not?
21 A. I would have, yes. I said, you know, "We got rid of
22 the documents from the office." I didn't know what those
23 documents were. I just said, "We got rid of documents from
24 the office."
25
26 Q. You said that in the context of --
27 A. The tip-truck - these documents, the tip-truck,
28 a receipt for the tip-truck that took the documents away
29 from my property.
30
31 Q. And you told Mr O'Connor about the document
32 destruction in that conversation?
33 A. Yes.
34
35 Q. I am just not entirely clear what you said in relation
36 to it to Mr O'Connor. You said that you can't believe --
37 A. Sorry, I'm not 100 per cent clear on what I said
38 either. It was around that sort of parts. I mentioned the
39 documents. I mentioned, you know, that I was absolutely
40 fuming that Ravbar was going down this track and I was
41 going to do the tit for tat, so, you know, I tried to
42 protect Michael, look after Michael in the early parts, you
43 know, done what's he's asked to do, and, you know, and the
44 documents on the day they were supposed to have got the
45 notice was the day that we removed those documents from the
46 office to my place and this is the receipt for the
47 tip-truck that took it all away, words to that effect. You
.22/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 69 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
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1 know --
2
3 Q. You said, "Look after Michael in the early parts".
4 What did you mean by that?
5 A. Well, when we first amalgamated, I was generally
6 trying to work along with Michael and then, you know,
7 whatever he asked, he was the Secretary, you know, give
8 respect to the Secretary's position and do what you're
9 told. There were parts of the negotiations of amalgamation
10 that had myself of some sort of authority figure and that
11 diminished quite quickly once we got over there. So, you
12 know - yeah.
13
14 Q. You gave one version yesterday and you are giving
15 another version today.
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. Why should we accept what you are saying now as
19 opposed to what you said yesterday about the receipt?
20 A. I guess that's a view for you. You know, I've had an
21 opportunity overnight - as I said earlier, my head was in
22 a different space yesterday. I still had concerns with my
23 wife taking the chair, so it was - you know, I felt a bit
24 ambushed in the afternoon and overnight I've had an
25 opportunity to get my thoughts together.
26
27 Q. If the Commission was to inquire of
28 Harrington Excavations, do you say that a copy of the
29 receipt is likely to be there?
30 A. Very likely.
31
32 Q. And that the receipt would say - do you say it was
33 originally made out to you?
34 A. Yes. It still is.
35
36 Q. Still is?
37 A. They didn't change the document.
38
39 Q. Right. You, though, when you went out there, did you
40 ask them to change it to the CFMEU?
41 A. I asked her to write "care of CFMEU", because it was
42 a CFMEU matter.
43
44 Q. And you, yourself, are you saying in relation to that
45 copy that you obtained --
46 A. Yes.
47
.22/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 70 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Q. -- changed the name to Michael Ravbar?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. How did you change it?
5 A. I photocopied it on my photocopier at home, whited-out
6 my name on it and wrote Michael's name on it.
7
8 Q. Why did you write Michael's name on it? Was he
9 responsible in any way in relation to the method of
10 removing documents from the CFMEU?
11 A. Yes.
12
13 Q. What do you say his role was in relation to that
14 exercise?
15 A. Well, the Secretary's role is that they are the
16 instructor, they give all the, you know, directions and run
17 the Union, and Michael - nothing goes in the CFMEU office,
18 nothing goes out the CFMEU office in Queensland without
19 Michael Ravbar sighting it or approving it, in or out, and
20 it's probably the only State that has, you know, a policy
21 book down to the point of when you can go to the toilet
22 almost, so it's quite, you know, thorough, the policy book,
23 and it all rolls back to Michael having the only say.
24
25 Q. Can I go back to 1 April then in relation to the
26 notice to produce?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. Can you recall whether or not you were aware of the
30 notice to produce being served on your National Office on
31 1 April?
32 A. Michael Ravbar told me that it's expected to be
33 getting the notice that day. He told me the office staff
34 had been informed not to pass any phone calls through to
35 him, not to look at certain, not to open certain emails,
36 and that he wanted to - wanted to not have to be in
37 a position of spending the next month photocopying
38 documentation, so he wanted to remove some of those items
39 from the office and he, you know, said, "We need to do
40 this", and I followed direction.
41
42 Q. What documents do you understand he was requesting or
43 directing be removed from the office?