FOI Enquiry Ref No: SER04684E6 - Harviestoun Estate

FOI Enquiry Ref No: SER04684E6 - Harviestoun Estate

E-mails

30/03/2012 16:48

Sign

Can you amend the first attachment so it looks more like the second?

Also, can the exclamation mark in the triangle be replaced with a tractor?

Martin

17/04/2012 14:40

Harviestoun Home Farm Sign

Hi Martin,

Please find attached an electronic copy of the draft sign.

Regards,

GIS Technical Officer

Clackmannanshire Council

Tel:

17/04/2012 15:05

Harviestoun Home Farm signage

Hi,

I refer to our conversation in Dollar when we discussed access at the Home Farm.

I've prepared a draft sign - see below.

Note that there would be 3 versions of this, 2 to the south west of the farm and 1 to the east.

Note too that I've had a complaint about recent signage that has appeared, so I'm keen to move forward on this in the near future.

Is the recommended route in the right place?

Do you have any other comments on the signage?

Regards.

Martin

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB

E:

T: 01259 452409

F: 01259 727453

W:

18/04/2012 15:41

Harviestoun Estate Sign

Hi Martin,

Please find attached the requested draft plan. Graeme is happy with the colours/symbols . The "You are here" markers will be removed as appropriate for the final copies.

Regards,

GIS Technical Officer

Clackmannanshire Council

Tel:

18/04/2012 15:46

Re: Harviestoun Estate Sign

Thanks.

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB

E:

T: 01259 452409

F: 01259 727453

W:

Hi Martin,

Please find attached the requested draft plan. Graeme is happy with the colours/symbols . The "You are here" markers will be removed as appropriate for the final copies.

Regards,

GIS Technical Officer

Clackmannanshire Council

Tel:

18/04/2012 16:03

Fw: Harviestoun Estate Sign

Hi,

Further to our meeting earlier today, please find revised sign attached.

The "You are here" markers will be removed as appropriate for the final copies.

Please let me know what you think of them.

Re our discussion on the garden - I have spoken with our planners and they drew my attention to the comment in point 2 of the recommendation in the following report

This states that the permission "does not approve th use of the said land ... as the curtilage of the Coach House for purposes incidental to the enjoyment of that house ".

Regards.

Martin

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB

19/04/2012 07:50

RE: Harviestoun Estate Sign

Hi Martin,

Thank you for meeting us yesterday as such short notice and thank you for the revised sign. I think it looks great, and my only comment would possibly be to change Harviestoun Estate to Harviestoun Farm in the contacts section. I will have to show it to my father and then get back to you as soon as I can.

With regards to the garden/curtilage point I think that we must have got the wrong impression. Again I will mention it to my father and then get back to you.

Best wishes,

To:

Subject: Fw: Harviestoun Estate Sign

From:

Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:13 +0100

Hi,

Further to our meeting earlier today, please find revised sign attached.

The "You are here" markers will be removed as appropriate for the final copies.

Please let me know what you think of them.

Re our discussion on the garden - I have spoken with our planners and they drew my attention to the comment in point 2 of the recommendation in the following report

This states that the permission "does not approve th use of the said land ... as the curtilage of the Coach House for purposes incidental to the enjoyment of that house ".

Regards.

Martin

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB **********************************************************************

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended for the addressee(s) only. If this message was sent to you in error, you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it and we request that you notify the sender immediately by return email.

Opinions expressed in this message and any attachments are not necessarily those held by Clackmannanshire Council or any person connected with the organisation, save those by whom the opinions were expressed.

Please note that any messages sent or received by Clackmannanshire Council's email system may be monitored and stored in an information retrieval system.

Stay Updated:

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**********************************************************************

19/04/2012 09:33

RE: Harviestoun Estate Sign

Hi,

I'll arrange for "Estate" to be replaced with "Farm" on the sign.

Please let me know if your father has any other comments.

I've had further communication about the signs that have been posted which (I'm told) mention "garden" and "private" - including one from Tillicoultry Community Council.

The signs may fall into the category of prohibition signs under section 14 of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, so if they could be removed and be replaced with the ones we have been developing, that might help allay some of the concerns.

Regards.

Martin

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB

E:

T: 01259 452409

F: 01259 727453

W:

Hi Martin,

Thank you for meeting us yesterday as such short notice and thank you for the revised sign. I think it looks great, and my only comment would possibly be to change Harviestoun Estate to Harviestoun Farm in the contacts section. I will have to show it to my father and then get back to you as soon as I can.

With regards to the garden/curtilage point I think that we must have got the wrong impression. Again I will mention it to my father and then get back to you.

Best wishes,

To:

Subject: Fw: Harviestoun Estate Sign

From:

Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:13 +0100

Hi,

Further to our meeting earlier today, please find revised sign attached.

The "You are here" markers will be removed as appropriate for the final copies.

Please let me know what you think of them.

Re our discussion on the garden - I have spoken with our planners and they drew my attention to the comment in point 2 of the recommendation in the following report

This states that the permission "does not approve th use of the said land ... as the curtilage of the Coach House for purposes incidental to the enjoyment of that house ".

Regards.

Martin

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB **********************************************************************

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended for the addressee(s) only. If this message was sent to you in error, you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it and we request that you notify the sender immediately by return email.

Opinions expressed in this message and any attachments are not necessarily those held by Clackmannanshire Council or any person connected with the organisation, save those by whom the opinions were expressed.

Please note that any messages sent or received by Clackmannanshire Council's email system may be monitored and stored in an information retrieval system.

Stay Updated:

Follow us on Clacksweb

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**********************************************************************

19/04/2012 09:47

Fw: Harviestoun Estate Sign

Further to the sign below, can you make the one amendment mentioned.

Thanks.

Martin

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB

E:

T: 01259 452409

F: 01259 727453

W:

----- Forwarded by Martin Dean/EDU/CLACKS on 19/04/2012 09:46 -----

Hi,

I'll arrange for "Estate" to be replaced with "Farm" on the sign.

Please let me know if your father has any other comments.

I've had further communication about the signs that have been posted which (I'm told) mention "garden" and "private" - including one from Tillicoultry Community Council.

The signs may fall into the category of prohibition signs under section 14 of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, so if they could be removed and be replaced with the ones we have been developing, that might help allay some of the concerns.

Regards.

Martin

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB

E:

T: 01259 452409

F: 01259 727453

W:

Hi Martin,

Thank you for meeting us yesterday as such short notice and thank you for the revised sign. I think it looks great, and my only comment would possibly be to change Harviestoun Estate to Harviestoun Farm in the contacts section. I will have to show it to my father and then get back to you as soon as I can.

With regards to the garden/curtilage point I think that we must have got the wrong impression. Again I will mention it to my father and then get back to you.

Best wishes,

To:

Subject: Fw: Harviestoun Estate Sign

From:

Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:13 +0100

Hi,

Further to our meeting earlier today, please find revised sign attached.

The "You are here" markers will be removed as appropriate for the final copies.

Please let me know what you think of them.

Re our discussion on the garden - I have spoken with our planners and they drew my attention to the comment in point 2 of the recommendation in the following report

This states that the permission "does not approve th use of the said land ... as the curtilage of the Coach House for purposes incidental to the enjoyment of that house ".

Regards.

Martin

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB **********************************************************************

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended for the addressee(s) only. If this message was sent to you in error, you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it and we request that you notify the sender immediately by return email.

Opinions expressed in this message and any attachments are not necessarily those held by Clackmannanshire Council or any person connected with the organisation, save those by whom the opinions were expressed.

Please note that any messages sent or received by Clackmannanshire Council's email system may be monitored and stored in an information retrieval system.

Stay Updated:

Follow us on Clacksweb

Follow us on Twitter

Follow us on Facebook

**********************************************************************

19/04/2012 10:10

Fw: Enquiry from ClacksWeb :: Walking Harviestoun Estate

Dear,

Further to our telephone conversation this morning, I enclose (edited) correpondence below with a resident of Tillicoultry and attach the draft sign I am on developing with the landowner.

Please note that access rights do not extend to farmyards and that if a reasonable alternative route is signposted around the farmyard and buildings, then access takers should follow this.

Please note also that I am in discussions with the landowner over the signs that are currently displayed.

If you require any clarification on the above, please get back to me.

Yours sincerely

Martin

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB

E:

T: 01259 452409

F: 01259 727453

W:

----- Forwarded by Martin Dean/EDU/CLACKS on 19/04/2012 10:01 -----

Dear ,

Thank you for your enquiry regarding access at Harviestoun Estate.

The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 gives a right of responsible (in keeping with the Scottish Outdoor Access Code) access to most land and inland water. It also places a number of duties on local authorities - one of which is to uphold access rights.

There are no rights of way at Harviestoun Estate Home Farm, but there are core paths to the south - shown in purple on the map below. Access rights do apply to most of Harviestoun Estate, but do not extend to farmyards.

In light of this, I have been developing signage with the Estate owners which highlights where the farmyard is and encourages access takers to avoid it by following the new track to the south east of the farmyard - as shown in blue on the attached map.

I hope the above provides clarification on your access rights and answers your query, but should you require further clarification or answers, please do not hesitate to get back to me.

Yours sincerely

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB

E:

T: 01259 452409

F: 01259 727453

W:

-----

The following enquiry has been received from the page titled 'Walks in Clackmannanshire' on the Clackmannanshire Council website:

Subject: Walking Harviestoun Estate

Enquiry:

------

For years I have enjoyed walking from Tillicoultry to Dollar via Harviestoun Estate. Last week I was dismayed to find signs near the top of the road leading from the West Lodge side stating that the land was a private garden and pointing me in another direction. Do you know whether the Estate is now 'private' and does not permit walkers as before?

19/04/2012 12:23

RE: Harviestoun Estate Sign

Hi Martin,

Thanks for changing 'Estate' to 'Farm'. I have copied my father's response:

Curtilage is a word that doesn’t feature in the Land Reform Act 2002. What you are seeking to do as an adjunct to the Planning Application is to define the ‘Private Garden Area’. This is a substantial house, with substantial subordinate land that has a defined garden area around it (the subject of the planning application). It is a fact that Harviestoun as a Private House is entitled to Private Garden Ground in keeping with it’s size and ‘expectation’. The boundary should be open to negotiation, but there is definitely a need to discuss and define it. There has been case law on this. The one to quote is Anne Gloag at Kinfauns Castle. She has sought to minimise the area not available to the Public by discussion and consultation. She did go to court, and was found to have been acting reasonably in accordance with the Act, and was not asking for an excessive area for privacy.

We must avoid confrontation; Court is not the arena to resolve this sort of matter.

It may be worth meeting Tillicoultry Community Council with Martin.

I think that we should see how we get on with the signs that you have done. I fully agree with my father that we should avoid confrontation at all costs, and I had hoped that we would do so, but I think that it may be best to meet Tillicoultry Community Council to explain what we are trying to do. I am not sure what you think. I will call to discuss.

Best wishes,

Nicholas

To:

Subject: RE: Harviestoun Estate Sign

From:

Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 09:33:01 +0100

Hi,

I'll arrange for "Estate" to be replaced with "Farm" on the sign.

Please let me know if your father has any other comments.

I've had further communication about the signs that have been posted which (I'm told) mention "garden" and "private" - including one from Tillicoultry Community Council.

The signs may fall into the category of prohibition signs under section 14 of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, so if they could be removed and be replaced with the ones we have been developing, that might help allay some of the concerns.

Regards.

Martin

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB

E:

T: 01259 452409

F: 01259 727453

W:

Hi Martin,

Thank you for meeting us yesterday as such short notice and thank you for the revised sign. I think it looks great, and my only comment would possibly be to change Harviestoun Estate to Harviestoun Farm in the contacts section. I will have to show it to my father and then get back to you as soon as I can.

With regards to the garden/curtilage point I think that we must have got the wrong impression. Again I will mention it to my father and then get back to you.

Best wishes,

To:

Subject: Fw: Harviestoun Estate Sign

From:

Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:13 +0100

Hi,

Further to our meeting earlier today, please find revised sign attached.

The "You are here" markers will be removed as appropriate for the final copies.

Please let me know what you think of them.

Re our discussion on the garden - I have spoken with our planners and they drew my attention to the comment in point 2 of the recommendation in the following report

This states that the permission "does not approve th use of the said land ... as the curtilage of the Coach House for purposes incidental to the enjoyment of that house ".

Regards.

Martin

Martin Dean

Access and Countryside Projects Officer

Community and Regulatory Services

Clackmannanshire Council

Kilncraigs

Greenside Street

Alloa

FK10 1EB **********************************************************************

This message contains privileged and confidential information intended for the addressee(s) only. If this message was sent to you in error, you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it and we request that you notify the sender immediately by return email.

Opinions expressed in this message and any attachments are not necessarily those held by Clackmannanshire Council or any person connected with the organisation, save those by whom the opinions were expressed.