VIRGINIA DEPARTMENT OF MINES, MINERALS AND ENERGY
VIRGINIA GAS AND OIL BOARD HEARING
Tuesday,October 17, 2017
Lebanon, Virginia
BOARD MEMBERS:
Bill Harris—Public Member
Donnie Ratliff—Public Member
Mary Quillen—Public Member
APPEARANCES:
Bradley Lambert—Chairman of the Virginia Gas & Oil Board
Rick Cooper—Director of the Division of Gas & Oil and
Principal Executive to the Staff of the Board
Sarah Gilmer—Staff Member of the Division of Gas & Oil
Sally Ketron—Staff Member of the Division of Gas & Oil
Paul Kugelman, Jr.—Senior Assistant Attorney General
Prepared by: Margaret Linford
1
Agenda Items
Item NumberDocket NumberPage
1Public Comments1
2Escrow Quarterly Report8
3VGOB-98-0324-0625-11(Approved)11
4VGOB-98-1117-0699-04(Approved)26
5VGOB-11-0419-2930-03(Approved)29
6VGOB-95-1024-0526-09(Approved)31
7VGOB-02-0416-1024-05(Approved)34
8VGOB-03-0819-1165-02(Approved)37
9VGOB-04-0120-1250-04(Approved)40
10VGOB-05-0719-1475-06(Approved)42
11VGOB-04-1214-1366-02(Approved)44
12VGOB-09-0317-2490-02(Approved)47
13VGOB-13-0618-4014-02(Approved)50
14VGOB-04-1116-1358-02(Continued)52
15VGOB-17-0815-4142(Approved)69
16VGOB-17-0919-4143(Approved)74
17VGOB-17-1017-4144(Affirmed)77
18VGOB-06-0516-1641-01(Testimony)84
19Board & Division Activities from the Staff(Approved)63
- Presented new revisions to the VGOB Regulations.
- Escrow disbursement update.
20Board Review of July2017 Minutes(Approved)88
1
[The audio for the beginning of this meeting is unavailable.]
Karen Simmons: When you get the paperwork, you'll see that I received the letter filing December 18, 2012, is when we finally got the packet that I could see who approved the well. And, to my much surprise, in going through tons of work, and you guys know these packets are huge. They sent me everything, I figured, hoping to overwhelm me, but that didn't happen. I went through every piece and, as I did, I found out that the first time, when they applied for it. If you look at August 2002, is what I have here and it shows Moses Davis heirs, address unknown. Then, you go on 10/14/2004, all of the sudden, they found us. So, when I was in a meeting here before, I don't understand how this works, but there was a board member. It was a lady and when they tried to get it to go through, they gave the newspaper ad, which, then I realized that must have been what they gave to us. Now, I find out for sure it is what they gave to us. And, someone on the board knew that person and said that they've lived there for 30 years. How could you have not gotten a hold of them? So, they didn't get it approved that day, but we weren't lucky enough to have someone on the board to know my family and stop them. So, I think, to keep that into consideration. We didn't know and they have gotten away with whatever they want. If you look at my parents, my mother has been paying taxes on this property. Her taxes, in one year, and I don't have that on here, is more money than she has received from CNX, since 2004. Since 2004, all my mother's checks total, I think it was, $7 and something, was the total amount that she said...$7 and forty-some cents, in all of the years. So, we get a penny check. It costs you more than that. So, here we are asking for another well. And, we're asking... We need another well. We would like to see some money for it. $7 from 2004 until now makes no sense. I see there's money in escrow. It keeps saying that there's a dispute of heirship. I would say let's fix the dispute of heirship before we give them permission to drill another well. Let's take the funds that's in the ones that's sitting there, that's people waiting. Since this started, my father has since deceased. I am here, today, because he said to me, "Don't let them get away with this." And, I will continue to fight. If you look at when we were at the meeting, Mr. Swartz has asked Mrs. Pigeon…?
Bradley Lambert: Yes, ma'am.
Karen Simmons: About what it means, what pooling means and she lets him know that it means one well. The argument went back and forth that day. You can go through all of the minutes because I went through all of the minutes, but to save you guys looking through the packet, I pulled out the pages that were important to me, when it says it is one well. He's going to say that, once we get permission, if you weren't there on the start of it, then you don't have a right to come back in, later. Well, how can you be there on the start of it, when you put it in the newspaper and, later on, find us? You can't. So, the rules say one. Then, if you read on through some of those, and I didn't bring it all, it says this is at the board's discretion. That's what the attorney said. Then, if you look at the end, when you get to the last page, he says, "We're going to be back and forth, petitioning to modify all of these field rules because they're off." So, basically, to me, I feel he's even bullying the board, saying, "You can either approve it or we're going to be back and petition," and here we are, again, just a different way, but he comes about getting what he wants. Now, I'm here to say I'm going to continue fighting. I'll go to wherever I have to. This needs to stop. It's wrong. That money sits there and, for $7 since 2004, and it's a good enough well, we need to put another one on it? I'm sorry. I don't think CNX should get rich. I think the people that own the property should have something a little bit more than $7 every year. So, I would ask you to please ask them to take care of the dispute. I know Wyatt and Harris was a problem, thinking there was a problem who owned the coal and gas. That has since been determined in Supreme Court. That should no longer be a problem, so that should be off of there. So, I would ask them to clean that up, get the money to the people and, then, consider a second well. So, I ask you to please think about it when he comes before you, today, and know that what they have done to my family for AX99 is wrong. And you guys have the power to stop that and I ask you to please do so.
Bradley Lambert: Ms. Simmons, are you going to be here when we call Docket Item 14?
Karen Simmons: I will. Yes, sir.
Bradley Lambert: We might ask you to come back forward, if you don't mind.
Karen Simmons: I will, gladly. I have all the paperwork, if you want me to bring the packets. I have all of it. Would you need me to do that?
Bradley Lambert: Not at this time. When we call the docket item, we'll ask you to come forward to provide testimony.
Karen Simmons: Okay. Thank you.
Mary Quillen: Let me ask you a question about the Moses Davis heirs and you aren't listed on here.
Karen Simmons: From Paula Davis, the sister, who I just told you was deceased and I have the power of attorney from my mother. This is my father.
Mary Quillen: Well, I was just looking at the list of the heirs that are listed.
Karen Simmons: You will see L.E. Davis [Inaudible] First, it was.... On the one you have, it should say Foy Howard Davis. On the side, it has an asterisk, "Preach," because that's what they called my father, "Preach."
Mary Quillen: What is his name, again?
Karen Simmons: Foy Howard Davis. They have "Preach" written beside it. If you want me to pull the list of heirs, I can.
Rick Cooper: Ms. Quillen, that's the Tract 4 table, 4B.
Mary Quillen: What she has highlighted is Tract 4.
Rick Cooper: Yes.
Mary Quillen: Moses Davis heirs. I don't see that name on here, at all. It's highlighted, but it has Moses Davis heirs.
Karen Simmons: The first one says, "Moses Davis heirs, address unknown." That says, "Unknown." That was my point to you, is when they first applied for the well...
Mary Quillen: Okay, but what I'm saying is this one, that you have highlighted here, is the heirs. That name is not listed on this one.
Karen Simmons: Okay, so I may have pulled.... I have his name on the list. There's a whole list of them. I will gladly bring that when I come back. I will have that page ready for you, with my father's name on it, because he's listed on there.
Mary Quillen: Okay.
Karen Simmons: I will gladly have that to you.
Bradley Lambert: Ms. Simmons, in what you handed to us, you gave us a Page 2 that says, "Moses Davis heirs, address unknown." Then, there's a Page 1 of 24, with the Moses Davis heirs, again. Are those from two separate docket items?
Karen Simmons: What happened is I received a full packet from CNX, finally, after Mr. Cooper finally got it, in 2012. We've been asking for it, from 2012. I have the whole packet. They sent me everything they had, so I don't know how the docket I have.... May I give it, just to show you what...? I'm giving it out. They sent me this packet. So, where it comes to all of this, I took the first page and went through and read this. You see my notes everywhere.
Bradley Lambert: So, did that packet come from our office?
Karen Simmons: This came from CNX.
Bradley Lambert: Okay.
Karen Simmons: Mr. Cooper finally had to ask for it because when we were in the meeting last time, when they were doing an amendment, I asked, "What are you amending?" I wanted to see this because, since 2004, I've asked for it and never would get it. The day I was here in the meeting, they thought I could go to the back office, there, and get stuff, but when I went back there, they said something messed up the file. I got nothing. They had nothing to show me that day. So, Mr. Cooper assured me, "I'm sorry. I don't know where that is, but I'll make sure you get the full packet." This is what I got in the mail. So, how that comes into play, I gave you the first page, showing when it was approved.
Mary Quillen: Just make sure you have it showing the listing of that when you come back.
Karen Simmons: Okay.
Mary Quillen: Because we don't want to hold up all these other people.
Bradley Lambert: Thank you. We'll call you back, Ms. Simmons, when that docket item is up.
Karen Simmons: Okay. Thank you.
Bradley Lambert: Thank you. I have Bobby Simmons.
Karen Simmons: That’s him. He’s with me.I asked to see if we can put his name on there. He said, "No."
Bradley Lambert: Okay. Thank you. Martha Guilliams. Good morning.
Martha Guilliams: Good morning, Mr. Chairman.
Bradley Lambert: Could you move down in front of the microphone, Ms. Guilliams, or move it in front of you, please?
Martha Guilliams: I don't want to be too loud. Martha Guilliams. Salem, Virginia. Heir to the Linkous Horn Estate. I'm here, this morning, because I have some questions that I would like to ask the board.
Bradley Lambert: We might not give you any answers, but we'll certainly listen.
Martha Guilliams: I hope I'll get some answers, so I don't have to keep bothering Rick. This thing about the T36. You know we had a little struggle, there. I don't understand why. I do want to ask the question. I know the board is supposed to be here to protect our interest. At least, that's what we've been told, through the years, but I do not think they have the right to give CNX permission not to write another check out of that account until they've recouped what they paid Arthur Stillwell, who did not own the money, to begin with, which really upsets me, very much. But, the day that the agreed to pay Arthur and his relatives, we explained to them that they did not own that well, so the board and CNX Gas and Mark, everybody here should have understood that. If you had gone back and looked through the records, you would have found that. But Arthur was paid like, what, 2010? So, we've been waiting seven years to get this money that was given to him, rather than its rightful owner. Now, I'm questioning the SGU2. We've never received money, there. I don't know if they paid that to somebody else, or what, but Rick did answer part of my question about that. He said you're working on it, now. Anything that's going to happen if you're going to give somebody some long-range, it needs to be done when we are here, so that we can at least have the opportunity to fight it, or explain to you. Just because they did the wrong thing, although they knew they were doing the wrong thing, I do not think this thing should have been dragged out for seven years because they were given permission not to write another check, especially that they knew they were paying the wrong person, when they paid it. You know, I would kind of like to have some explanation to that. Also, this gob well that all these other wells have been put into, I want to be explained to how you can pay us by the acre, when we're still supposed to get the 1/8, the 12.5%. So, how are you going to turn that over to acreage? We're supposed to be paying by percentage of this, not by the acres of whose well pumped, or whatever. That doesn't have anything to do, so I would really love to have an explanation for that, from Mark and Anita, or from the board, you, Mr. Chairman, or the director. I don't care, but I really, truly, want to understand. Have you been to the government? Has the law changed? So, you're not receiving 1/8, or 12.5%, anymore?
Bradley Lambert: Ms. Guilliams, I don't think this is appropriate to get into those discussions with you, during public comment period. Those are discussions...
Martha Guilliams: You may not, but I've had these questions for seven years and nobody has ever addressed them.
Bradley Lambert: I understand that you've been working with Mr. Cooper on trying to get this worked out and T36 is, actually, as you well know, is on our docket to be heard.
Martha Guilliams: I'm not referring to T36, although I am very disappointed that the board allowed this to go this long because of an overpayment to Arthur Stillwell's family, when it was supposed to have been the LinkousHorn heirs. But, the SGU2, I do have a lot of questions and I want to know how you're going to be paying us, by the acreage, when we're supposed to get 1/8, 12.5%. That is my question.
Bradley Lambert: We don't have the information in front of us, for SGU2. We'll have to wait until that docket comes up.
Martha Guilliams: It's on the list, this morning.
Bradley Lambert: Is it, Mr. Cooper? Is that one being called up, as well?
Martha Guilliams: Does that say, "SGU2?"
Rick Cooper: I don't think SGU2 is on the docket.
Bradley Lambert: I didn't see it on the docket, either.
Martha Guilliams: I'll have to go back and look. I thought it was on.
Bradley Lambert: The board doesn't get involved in those issues until it comes before the board, to hear. We don't work in it, day-to-day. That's Mr. Cooper and his staff that does that. That's what I'm going to say. The board doesn't work in those numbers and do those calculations. That's what Mr. Cooper does, from day-to-day. Then, he advises the board on the disbursement, so the board can't have that discussion with you because we just don't know until we see the docket item.
Martha Guilliams: Well, the board, apparently, thought they had the right to give CNX permission not to write a check for us, although Judge Johnson, over at Grundy, ordered this in November 2015, which I have provided copies to Anita and Mark and Rick and everybody knew this.
Rick Cooper: So, Mr. Chairman, for clarity. T36 is a single unit. It has been incorporated into SGU2, but the SGU2 docket item is not being disbursed, today. T36 is.
Bradley Lambert: Okay. Thanks.
Martha Guilliams: Okay. So, that's how it's listed on the.... I don't see well. I know that, so you may have to correct me, sometime. So, I apologize if I didn't read it right.
Bradley Lambert: We'll have to wait until that one comes before the board.
Martha Guilliams: Okay. That's fine, but I would like to at least be present if they make any more of these decisions that's going to affect me or my family members.
Bradley Lambert: We publish the docket, so...
Martha Guilliams: It was not on the docket.
Bradley Lambert: SGU2 is not on the docket.
Martha Guilliams: No, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about granting permission for a gas company not to issue a check, until they had recouped the money they had disbursed to the wrong person. I remember what happened with Daisy Burke and all that. That was taken care of, immediately.
Bradley Lambert: Well, we publish the docket and we don't know what issues are going to come up with any particular docket item until that day before the board. It would be almost impossible for us to tell you that they're going to ask for something when we don't know that, when the docket is published.