Narrator-Socrates: 1 Therefore , on the One Hand , Having Said These Things , I Thought That

Book 2

B

Narrator-Socrates: 1 Therefore , on the one hand , having said these things , I thought that

357 oun men eipwn tauta Egw wmhn

I had been set-free from this discussion ; but on the other hand , it was accordingly , and

aphllacqai(apallassw) logou : d’ hn ara

as it is reasonable , only the introduction . For Glaucon , who is always on target , being

wV eoike , to prooimion . gar o Glaukwn aei tugcanei wn

The Bravest of The Brave ,both in regards to all matters , and especially on this occasion ,

andreiotatoV te proV apanta , kai dh kai tote

would not accept the abandonment of the discussion by Thrasymachos , but said :

ouk apedexato thn aporrhsin tou Qrasumacou , all’ efh :

Glaucon: O Socrates , is it your aim to appear to have persuaded us , or to have really

W SwkrateV , poteron boulei dokein pepeikenai hmaV h wV alhqwV

persuaded us , that it is , in every way , better/superior to be Just than unjust ?

357b peisai , oti esti panti tropw ameinon einai dikaion h adikon ?

Socrates: (I said) My aim was to have really persuaded you , if it were left-up to me at least .

eipon , emoi WV alhqwV , ei an eih eloimhn egwg’ .

Glaucon: (he said) In that case then , you are not hitting that which you are aiming at .

efh , toinun , Ou poieiV o boulei .

For accordingly then , tell me ; does it appear to you that there exists a kind of Good , which gar ara lege moi : dokei soi einai ti toionde agaqon , o

we would welcome-kindly , gladly-accepting It for Its-own sake , but not because we aim to have

an aspazomenoi dexaimeq’ auto autou eneka , all’ ou efiemenoi ecein

what results from it ? Such as Gladness / Well-Being , and those pleasures which are harmless ,

twn apobainontwn ; oion to cairein kai ai hdonai osai ablabeiV

and afterwards , nothing happens because of them except than that you keep on Faring-Well .

kai ton epeita mhden gignetai dia tautaV allo h econta cairein .

Socrates: (then I said) To me at least , there does appear to be such a Good .

357c d’ egw hn , Emoige , dokei einai toiouton ti .

Glaucon: What next then ? Is there another kind which we would be Well-disposed to possess ,

Ti de ; o agapwmen

both , for its own sake , and for what results from it ? Such as in turn , having Presence of Mind ,

te auto autou carin kai twn gignomenwn ap’autou ; oion au to fronein

and Vision and Health ; for such things I suppose , we welcome for both reasons .

kai to oran kai to ugiainein : gar ta toiauta pou aspazomeqa di’ amfotera .

Socrates: (I said) Yes . (eipon , Nai .)

Glaucon: Then do you see a third species of Good in which belongs gymnastic exercise , and

de oraV ti Triton eidoV agaqou en w to gumnazesqai kai

being healed when sick and the art of healing , and the other ways of making-money ?

to iatreuesqai kamnonta kai iatreusiV te kai o alloV crhmatismoV ;

For these are laborious , we might say , but they do benefit us ; and on the one hand , we would

gar tauta epipona , an faimen , de wfelein hmaV , kai men an

not kindly-welcome to have them for their own sakes , but on the other hand , for the sake of

357d ouk dexaimeqa ecein auta eautwn eneka , de carin

the wages and the other things which come from them .

twn misqwn te kai twn allwn osa gignetai ap’ autwn .

Socrates: (I said) Yes , this is then , the third species . But what about it then ?

efhn , gar touto Esti oun triton . alla ti dh ;

Glaucon: (he said) In which of these classes , do you establish Fairness/Righteousness ?

efh , En poiw toutwn tiqhV thn dikaiosunhn ;

Socrates: (then I said) On the one hand , I believe , that It belongs in The Most-Beautiful and

358 d’ egw hn , men Egw oimai en tw kallistw

Good Class , which is Beloved , both for Its-Own sake , and for that which comes from It ;

w agaphteon kai di’ auto kai dia ta gignomena ap’ autou

by The One who aims to be Blessed .

tw mellonti esesqai makariw .

Glaucon: (he said) This is certainly not the way it appears to the many .

efh , toinun Ou dokei toiV polloiV ,

But they put it in the laborious class , which must be practiced both for the sake of its wages

alla tou epiponou eidouV , o epithdeuteon q’ eneka misqwn

and for the regard of public opinion , but for its own sake , it must be avoided as being difficult .

kai dia eudokimhsewn doxan , de di’ auto feukteon wV on calepon .

The Most Beautiful and Good Class The Middle Class The Laborious Class

Beloved : Beloved : undesired :

For its own sake Only for its own sake For its own sake

and for its results to cairein only for its results

to fronein That which Delights ta gumnazhsqai

Presence of Mind Charms , Fares well gymnastic exercise

dikaiosunhn hdonai ablabeiV iatreuesqai/iatreusiV

Fairness Harmless Pleasures undergoing/applying

and treatment

to oran / to ugiainein ugieiV /misqwn/

Vision / Health eudokimhsewn doxan

\ health/wages/

Health : Being Healthy public esteem

Vision : Having Sight No consequences

Fairness : Being Just Fairness / dikaiosunhn

Presence of Mind :

Possessing The Power to

Always Act Appropriately

The Many/TEACHERS\The Protectorate Root

Socrates-“bad”/STUDENTS\”good”-Thrasymachos

Socrates: (then I said) 2 I know , that it appears in this way , and that such is the reason

d’ egw hn , Oida oti dokei outw , kai wV toiouton

for which , Thrasymachos has been finding fault with it all along , while praising injustice .

on Qrasumacou yegetai palai d’ epaineitai adikia :

But , as it appears , I am a bad student .

all’ , eoike , egw tiV dusmaqhV .

Glaucon: (he said) Come along then , listen and see if these statements appear to you as they do

358b efh , Iqi dh , akousan ean tauta dokh soi kai



to me .For it appears to me that Thrasymachos has fallen under your spell , like a charmed-snake ,

emou . gar fainetai moi QrasumacoV khlhqhnai upo sou wsper ofiV

sooner than he should have , since I have not yet understood the proof offered in regards to each .

prwiaiteron tou deontoV , de emoi oupw kata noun h apodeixiV gegone peri ekaterou .

For I desire to hear , both what each is , and what power each possesses itself according to itself ,

gar epiqumw akousai , t’ ti ekateron estin kai tina dunamin ecei auto kaq’ auto

when they exist in one soul , but to dismiss from the mind , the wages and consequences arising

easai en enon th yuch , de cairein touV misqouV kai ta gignomena

from them . Therefore , this is what I will do , if it is also pleasing to you . I will renew

ap’ autwn . oun outwsi poihsw , ean kai dokh soi : epananewsomai

the account of Thrasymachos ; first of all , I will state what it is people affirm Fairness to be ,

358c ton logon Qrasumacou , prwton men kai erw oion fasi dikaiosunhn einai

and from where it has arisen ; then secondly , that all those who practice it , practice it

kai oqen gegonenai : de deuteron oti panteV oi epithdeuonteV auto epithdeuousin

unwillingly , as a necessary but not as a good exercise ; then thirdly , that they have some reason

akonteV , wV anagkaion all’ ouc wV agaqon : de triton oti eikotwV

for doing it ; for according to what people say , the life of the unjust is much better than the life

drwsi auto : gar ara wV legousin , o tou adikou polu amaeinwn h o bioV

of the just . However , in no way does it appear in this way to me at least , O Socrates , although

tou dikaiou . epei outi dokei outwV emoige , w SwkrateV , mentoi

I am puzzled/troubled , when this is dinned into my ears ; this is what I hear from Thrasymachos

aporw diateqrulhmenoV ta wta , akouwn Qrasumacou

and countless others , but up to this time , I have never heard an account made for the sake of

358d kai muriwn allwn , de pw oudenoV akhkoa ton logon uper

Fairness/Righteousness , such as I desire , that shows that It is Superior to injustice ; thus

thV dikaiosunhV , wV boulomai , wV ameinon adikiaV , de

I wish to hear It being praised for Its own sake . Thus I believe that I will most likely hear that

boulomai akousai auto egkwmiazomenon kaq’ auto . d’ oimai an malista puqesqai

from you . Because of this , I say , I will stretch each note to the highest degree in praise of

sou : dio erw katateinaV epainwn

the unjust life ; thus speaking in such a way , I will show the way in which I wish to hear you ton adikon bion , de eipwn endeizomai tropon on boulomai akouein soi

speak in turn , on the one hand , when you censure injustice , and on the other , praise Fairness .

kai au men yegontoV adikian de epainountoV dikaiosunhn .

But see , if what I say coincides with your wishes .

all’ ora , ei a legw soi boulomenw .

Socrates: (then I said) Extremely most of all , for concerning what else could an intelligent-being

358e d’ egw hn , malista Pantwn , gar peri tinoV an tiV noun

care more to keep-up and speak and hear about often ?

cairoi mallon ecwn legwn kai akouwn pollakiV ;

Glaucon: (he said) You speak most Beautifully . Then first hear what they have to say concerning

efh , legeiV Kallista : kai prwton akoue o efhn erein peri

this ; what fairness/righteousness is able to accomplish , and from where it arises .

toutou ti dikaiosunh oion te , kai oqen gegone .

For they certainly say that , on the one hand , according to nature , to do injustice

gar dh fasi men pefukenai , to adikein

is good , but on the other hand , the suffering of injustice is evil , thus the suffering of injustice ,

agaqon , de to adikeisqai kakon , de to adikeisqai

is exceeded by a greater amount of evil , compared to the amount of good in doing injustice ;

uperballein pleoni kakw , h agaqw to adikein ,

so that when people both do and suffer injustice in dealing with one another , and taste of both ,

wst’ epeidan te adikwsi kai adikwntai allhlouV kai geuwntai amfoterwn ,

those who are unable to escape the one and do the other , think it profitable to make a contract

toiV mh dunamenoiV ekfeugein to men airein to de dokei lusitelein xunqesqai

with each other neither to do nor to suffer injustice . And certainly from this source , they begin

359 allhloiV mht’ adikein mht’ adikeisqai . kai dh enteuqen arxasqai

to set-up laws and contracts for themselves , and they name the resulting commandment tiqesqai nomouV kai xunqhkaV autwn , kai onomasi to upo epitagma

of the law , lawful and just , and certainly from this , arises the origin and make-up of fairness ,

tou nomou nomimon te kai dikaion , kai dh tauthn einai genesin te kai ousian dikaiosunhV ,

being , on the one hand , that which exists between the best , namely , to do injustice and not

ousan men tou ontoV metaxu aristou , ean adikwn mh

receive requital for it , and on the other hand , the worst case , in which they suffer injustice but

didw dikhn de tou kakistou h adikoumenoV ean

are unable to get vengeance . Thus the just , being a mean between both of these , is cared-for ,

adunatoV timwreisqai , de to dikaion on en mesw anfoterwn toutwn agapasqai

not as being good , but as being honored/valued/esteemed as an inability to do injustice .

359b ouc wV agaqon , all’ wV timwreisqai arrwstia tou adikein :

Since the one who is able to do injustice , as truly being a man , would never make a contract

epei ton dunamenon poiein auto wV alhqwV andra an oud’pote xunqesqai

with anyone neither about the doing of injustice nor about the undergoing of it – for he would

eni mhte to adikein mhte adikeisqai : gar an

be mad to do so . Therefore , on the one hand , such is certainly the nature of fairness ,

mainesqai . oun men toiauta dh h fusiV dikaiosunhV ,

O Socrates , and of such a kind as this itself , and arising out of which according to nature ,

w SwkrateV , te kai toiauth auth , kai ex wn pefuke ,

as they argue .

wV o logoV .

Glaucon: 3 But as for the second point , we could perceive most clearly that those who practice

de wV kai an aisqoimeqa malist’ oi epithdeuonteV

(fairness) , practice it unwillingly/involuntarily as they are unable to do injustice , if we were

epithdeuousi auto akonteV adunamia tou adikein , ei

to make such a case in our mind : Let us grant license/authority/the means to each , both the just

359c poihsaimen toionde th dianoia : donteV exousian ekaterw te tw dikaiw