10/22 INTERCHANGE DISCUSSION ON KILBOURNE’S AND MORGAN’S ARTICLES
Interchange Conference Transcript
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[Message #1 09:06:13 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Karen Wong:
Evaluate Jean Kilbourne’s analysis of sexism and violence in advertising or Morgan’s discussion of the same themes in rap. What are the causes and consequences of “pornographic” depictions of women in popular culture, according to either writer? To what extent do you agree with Kilbourne’s or Morgan’s analysis and why? If possible, include in your response at least one quote, cited according to APA format.
[Message #2 09:34:09 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
zena tarasena:
Morgan fears that the fans are demonstrating the opposite of feminism. By supporting the music with lewd dancing and pleasure seeking abandon, they are merely reducing themselves to nothing more than sex objects She says "I have to wonder if there isn't something inherently unfeminist in supporting a music that repetedly reduces me to tits and ass and encourages pimping on the regular" (Morgan p.443). They have allowed themselves to be lowered to the level of prostitute, to be treated with no respect, used and discarded. She is afraid that being treated this way they are going to misunderstand the meaning of love and commitment as simply a self destructive obsession. Their relationships will fail, and they will end up raising their children alone, depressed and probably resort to some kind of self medication such as drugs or alcohol. They have lost touch with their feminism, they have put themselves down and are no longer equal to men on any level.
I agree with her in that nowadays so many men do hate the idea of marriage and responsibility. Boys are growing up in society hating their fathers who abandoned them, and being raised by women who sell themselves to men for financial aid. They are also shaped and reinforced everywhere they look by the media. Of course they are angry and depressed. They self medicate with drugs and alcohol which brings them temporary relief from a pain of which they can't see the origin. They voice there feelings in their music as a cry for help and understanding. Their anger is vented at their brothers and sisters as Misplaced Aggression (Myers 2008) They can't vent it on their parents who may be the cause, so they vent it on others. There is so much anger in their lives, especially about being right. I guess when people have been robbed of a secure upbringing, they grab at anything they can to keep them selves afloat.
Advertising depicts women the way they want to be seen. Or is it the other way around, is the media shaping the way women should be seen, and if this is the case, who is behind it? Morgan says women are destroying their feminism, The results are affecting men. Men are demonstrating their anger through their music. Killborne is saying that women are being manipulated by the media into losing their feminism. It seems that there is a vicious spiral down.
[Message #3 09:39:00 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Gloria Keane:
I think that Jean Kilbourne's analysis of sexism and violence are right on the money. I never looked at advertising the way I do now, because of her analysis of these advertisings. When I saw them I just saw what they were advertising but I didn't look at what the subliminal messages were saying. For example when "woman is rewarded for her sexuality by the man's wealth," which in turn "dehumanizes and objectifies people, especially women". It is disturbing to think that by now, we must have seen thousands of these types of advertising in commercial, billboards, flyers and etc. If we continue going in this direction with these types of "pornographic" depictions of women in pop culture we will continue to get deeper into dehumanizing women into objects.
[Message #4 09:39:04 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Courtney Chin:
According to Kilbourne sexism and violence in advertising has greater affects on women than they do for men. Ads put a big emphasis on how a woman should looks and for men it is about power. If a woman does not look a certain way they should change themselves, not a mans perception. These types of ads are selling women products/ways to make themselves perfect and more appealing for men. Ads also "idealizes a template for relationships between men and women that is a recipe for disaster…" (Kilboure, 2007, p. 420). This also depicts women as passive, (sex) objects that men can freely take over and use whenever because they have the power and right to do so.
There are many causes of pornographic depictions of women in popular culture are ads using sex appeal to sell their products, women letting and subjecting themselves to such degrading treatment, and men thinking they are the superior being who can treat women however they please. The consequences of this is that women are always on guard to protect themselves, be "sexy," cater to their man and many other things.
[Message #5 09:39:16 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Karen Wong:
I was fascinated by Morgan's analysis of rap, the entire time recalling snippets from music videos such as men swiping a credit card down a woman's butt crack or women wearing thong underwear and "booty clapping" to the beat. I admit that my first thought was why women would allow themselves to be treated that way? But I also thought that it was sad that some men would treat women that way; after all, they wouldn't treat their sisters and mothers in such a humiliating way. Yet as Morgan argues, you can't critique rap in a vacuum. Morgan (2007) argues that racism and the white power structure, which she equates with a type of "war," is at the root cause of such blatant sexism and self destructiveness: "They've [the white power structure] conditioned our men to believe the enemy is brown. The effects of this have been as wicked as they've been debilitating. Being in battle with an enemy that looks just like you makes it hard to believe in the basics every human needs. For too many black men there is no trust, no community, no family. Just self" (446). I found that idea to be very compelling-the enemy in this case might extend to themselves (self hatred manifesting itself as self destructive behaviors) or other black folks, and who not to target than those less powerful than them-black women, who are facing the twin evils of racism and sexism. Yet as much as I am convinced by her analysis and understand the role that women can play to avoid being complicit, I found her argument strangely devoid of the responsibility that sexist black men also need to take. I've seen rap used in empowering ways to raise people's awareness of social injustice, so perhaps an opportunity is presenting itself to strive toward gender and racial equality?
[Message #6 09:41:15 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Kristy Wisnia:
Both agree that to use "pornographic" messages within the media that specifically target women would cause the exploitation and devaluing of women as human beings, instead they are made out to be sex objects that men can take advantage and control over. However, Kilbourne would focus more on the prevention of subjugation to all women not just black women, like Morgan emphasizes upon in her essay. I'm not sure Kilbourne would agree with Morgan that rap or hip hop is a way to relinquish a lot of pent up pain and vigor residing within the black community but rather Kilbourne would see it as another means of harmful influence to the youth of the community, in which they learn to dehumanize women further, where Morgan would argue sexual appeal is a way for women to gain power and security and that it is the women's responsibility to control that rage held up within the black man. "Sex has long been the bartering chip that women use to gain protection, material wealth, and the vicarious benefits of power. In the black community, where women are given less access to all of the above, "trickin'" becomes a means of leveling the playing field. Denying the justifiable anger of rappers - men who couldn't get the time of day from these women before a few dollars and a record deal - isn't empowering and strategic. Turning a blind eye and scampering for moral high ground diverst our attention away from the young women who are being denied access to power and are suffering for it" (Morgan,p.447). "But on some level, all women know what it is to lack access to their own poer, to live with a piece of themselves unclaimed" ((Kilbourne,p.439).
[Message #7 09:41:47 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Thomas Tran:
I think both Kilbourne and Morgan discussion has the same theme that sexism leads to violence. Overall both writers are focusing on the same interested about how women are being mistreated. We see many advertisements targeting males with females in them with sexual appeal. In advertisement market they don't see females as a human; the market sees females as a sexual object selling their product. Sometimes the product is not even present in the ad but the body of a female along with the company name is present. We are teaching future generation with wrong message by the advertisement and media. Both these markets are showing female being dominated by male and also women in these ads and media are seen as objects and not a human.
[Message #8 09:41:53 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Diana Servantes:
I think both Kilbourne and Morgan discussion has the same theme that sexism leads to violence. Overall their topic is mainly about how woman are mistreated. Females are not seen as human beings no more, but as object as a source of advertisement. The advertisement industry is using pornographic images of females and by this leads to violence. Violence is caused by encouraging male to be forceful, dominant and to value sexual intimacy than emotional intimacy. By this, encouraging men to act this way promotes rape and violent acts towards females. We are teaching the future generation with wrong messages by the media. Morgan also talks about how the music industry dehumanizes females by their fowl lyrics, calling females "bitches and hoes".
[Message #9 09:43:00 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Kristy Wisnia:
wouldn't you agreee that Morgan was more an advocate towards the women in the black community? How did she view rap as opposed to hip hop; is it good or bad?
[Message #10 09:43:01 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Karen Wong:
Building on Zena's idea, the theory of misplaced aggression also applies to the misogyny that is present in rap.
[Message #11 09:43:10 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Courtney Chin:
commenting on zena's post, I think the media is shaping the way women should be seen, but it is not just the marketing/advertiments fault. Women allow themselves to think beautiful is that way which makes them vulnerable to change themselves/their appearences
[Message #12 09:43:45 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Karen Wong:
Gloria and company, what are some of Kilbourne's ideas that you were drawn to?
[Message #13 09:45:22 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Courtney Chin:
when we were watching the flim on friday, i was really drawn to the idea that when we think of a person as less than us, it is easier to treat that person with violence, abuse, etc
[Message #14 09:45:42 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Kristy Wisnia:
shouldn't both men and women work together to solve these problems, it seems Morgan said it was the women's responsibility to take care of the oppression and hate or pain that are in the lives of black men?\
[Message #15 09:46:48 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Courtney Chin:
i think so. it not just a woman responsiblitiy.
[Message #16 09:47:24 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Kristy Wisnia:
I agree with Courtney that was one of the issues Kilbourne presented that I was really drawn to and just what exactly goes through our minds when we reduce the livlihood of human beings around us
[Message #17 09:47:33 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
zena tarasena:
Courtney that goes along with (Myers 2008) in that distance makes it easier to hurt others
[Message #18 09:48:02 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Courtney Chin:
but i think the first step to making this happen is to make men and women aware of what is going on under the surface of advertising and rap music, etc
[Message #19 09:48:30 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Kristy Wisnia:
what is a way of stopping the opression stopping the dehumanization of one another because in advertising which do they see sells better sex or otherwise and we really have to think why does sex sell
[Message #20 09:48:47 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Gloria Keane:
I agree with what you are saying Kristy. This isn't a problem of women but all are problems, we need to work ttogether to solve this. Though, I believe women should take the initiative to say its time, now to stop. If it continues, this will affect and is affecting the thoughts of young boys and girls and molding them to think this is the way it is
[Message #21 09:49:02 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Diana Servantes:
we can allow people to be aware but we are subtly influence by the media even if we dont notice it. We prime all the time we just dont know it.
[Message #22 09:49:14 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Kristy Wisnia:
which did morgan point out was more harmful rap or hip hop, because it seems she was an advocate of hip hop?
[Message #23 09:50:26 AM, Wednesday, October 22, 2008]
Kristy Wisnia:
if the media is aware of the subliminal messages they give out and their effect, why do they do it if they know it will harm us just for money no it needs to stop now but again it's how you're right diana that it's a very strong influence over us