Transcription of Interview with Donald Gardner of the Philadelphia Clef Club
Track 1 (transcribed by TaNeeka N. Prioleau)
TaNeeka: So could you just tell us first, I guess, a little about your position here at the Clef Club, what you do basically?
Don Gardner: Well, I used to be the President, but now I’m facility manager. I oversee everything that goes on here. You know, from checking the bathrooms is clean, make sure they clean, to making sure the contracts are signed when people rent the place and then make sure the place is up and running…So I do a little bit of everything…when I’m here.
TaNeeka: Play a little music yourself too or no?
Don Gardner: No, no, I had completely retired until nineteen…, till two thousand one. And they called me in from Europe and I went over there, so now I’m back, back doing it, but I hadn’t done it in about forty years I guess.
TaNeeka: What do you play?
Don Gardner: Drums and sing, but all I do now is sing. I don’t play no drums. [Group laughs]
TaNeeka: No drums anymore?
Don Gardner: Drums are out. I stopped because it too much to carry around. I’m too old for that…But as far as that, that’s about it.
George: Do you guys [referring to the group of students] want to have him like give a little bit…, like I found a bunch of different groups and stuff that you’ve been in, do you mind giving us just a…
Don Gardner: I had been in?
George: Uh…what? [Group laughs] I don’t know! I found a Don Gardner.
Don Gardner: Yeah.
George: Is that not you?
Don Gardner: Yeah.
George: That is you!
Don Gardner: Yeah.
George: Okay!
Don Gardner: Oh, you went online?
George: I went online. [Group laughs] I saw Don Gardner and Dee Dee Ford. Okay, I also saw the Sonotones.
Don Gardner: Yeah.
George: And that you worked with Jimmy Smith, and I just wanted you to possibly give us just like a breakdown of when your music career started, how you began and…
Don Gardner: Well, I started when I was seventeen.
George: Okay.
Don Gardner: I ain’t going to say how far back that was, but it was back before any of you were thought of.
George: I could probably figure it out. [Group laughs]
Don Gardner: And Dottie Smith taught me how to play cocktail drum, which is the drum I’m playing on here [passes around pamphlet]. Now that’s from back in nineteen forty something, I think. [Nineteen] forty-whatever. [Group laughs] And then I started the group called the Three Bachelors. But in the meantime, I was singing with the Jimmy Shorter’s Band. And I was singing with a group called Boddie Blue Flames. Singing all over the place, just having a ball. When I first started though, I used to sneak into clubs to sing; I was only sixteen. I used to sneak into clubs, sing and go back out. I couldn’t stay in them ‘cause I was too young. And, uh, I just kept at it. And then I started my own group about [nineteen] forty-nine, which was Three Bachelors; I had Jimmy Smith on piano and a fella named Outcast on the saxophone. And at that time we sang harmony and played the instruments, but I was playing the cocktail drums.
George: What year was that?
Don Gardner: [Nineteen] forty-nine, going into [nineteen] fifty.
George: I see. This was all in Philadelphia?
Don Gardner: Yeah, this was all in Philly! And uhh, then we went from the piano to the organ, and then I added Darnell Schwartz. That’s when I changed the name to the Sonotones. And we traveled all over the place…Excuse me [interview paused while Don Gardner answers a cell phone call]
Track 2 (transcribed by TaNeeka N. Prioleau)
Don Gardner: So I started the Sonotones and we begin totravel up and down the east coast. We played in all the, what I’d call, the ‘Chitlin’ Circuits,’ which was all black clubs. Then…[interview paused while Don Gardner answers another cell phone call] But I was making records starting in [nineteen] forty-nine. My first record was made with Gotham Records. And Doc Bagby, which was a local organ player, he was producing at the time. Umm, and I been making records up until maybe five years ago. You know, I wasn’t doing it, not to do records to be doing something, but ahh I’ve had some records that did very well for me. I went to Europe, went to South America, umm…went all over the country and traveled with the Rock n’ Roll shows or the Rhythm & Blues shows; Sam Cooke and the Drifters, and umm the Shirelle’s, all the Motown acts. And we did that, we did that uhh until I decided to stop really. And that was nineteen seventy. But I still kept recoding. That’s why there is so many records out there, some of them I don’t even remember.
George: Yeah, some of the bigger ones I see…one of your biggest ones is “Need Your Lovin’”
Don Gardner: Yeah, that was [nineteen] sixty-two.
George: And then there’s Don and Dee Dee from Sweden?
Don Gardner: Yeah, that was [nineteen] sixty-five. And then we did, me and Baby Washington, did an album. That was in, I guess [nineteen] sixty-nine. Then I did some stuff in Chicago; for a friend of mine, when it came out, I didn’t even know it was out. That’s how I ended up in Europe…I had a hit record and I didn’t even know about it, so I had to go see it. [Group laughs]
Jennifer: What was the difference between the Philly jazz scene, versus like…you said you traveled up and down the east coast? Was it like a difference in the atmosphere or the people or…?
Don Gardner: No, because we all had organ groups. Doc Bagby, Shirley Scott, Hershey [inaudible], Eddie ‘Lockjaw’ Davis, and when Lockjaw left you had Stanley Turntine. So it was…we would just follow each group. Each group would almost run into each other, going from Pittsburgh to Buffalo to Syracuse, New York to Newark to Philly to Baltimore to Washington. It was just a circuit. And you could work all year in these circuits. And all these organ groups just followed. And it was just about the same thing everywhere you went ‘cause people were into organ groups at the time, you know. And ahh, some of them played jazz, some of them played what you would call rhythm and blues, and some of them just played, you know, everything. But that was the time when music was music and songs were songs. Today it’s a whole different thing.
Jennifer: In the jazz scene or just music in general?
Don Gardner: Music in general.
Jennifer: Oh.
Don Gardner: You know, jazz had a thing were nobody knew what they were doing because they were changing it. That’s when Dizzy Gillespie and all them started playing. And that changed the sound of jazz. You know, and jazz has changed to another level now. But that smooth jazz…I’m not talking about that ‘cause that’s not jazz.
Jennifer: So what do you..what like…yeah, I’ve heard that from a few people. Like what do you consider authentic jazz? Like what is it about it that makes it so real?
Don Gardner: Well, number one, Anita Baker is not a jazz singer. Uhh, and a bunch of other singers you hear on smooth jazz, they’re not jazz singers. They’re basically song stylists because when you here them, you know who they are. The rap groups, half the time you hear them, you don’t know who’s who because they all sound alike! The beat is the same, they sound the same. When I came up and you heard a Dinah Washington record, you didn’t have to guess who that was. You knew that was Dinah Washington. When you heard Sarah Vaughn, you didn’t have to guess who that was. You knew it was Sarah Vaughn. Today, you don’t know who’s doing what. I’ll put it this way…I don’t know! You know, when I listen to the radio, if somebody said that was…I wouldn’t know because I don’t listen to it. When I do listen to it, it sounds like the same thing over and over and over. But the media and the people that own the stations just feed it to them. And…I could make you a hit if I had the radio stations to keep playing it. And it could be junk. If I play it long enough, people will buy it. That’s how fickle people are.
Track 3 (transcribed by Georgette Cox)
George: I have a question actually, ‘cause when I looked you up, I usually like, when I try to find out different things about music, I go to a certain site; it’s called allmusic.com. It’s pretty like accredited music site runby like BMJ [inaudible] MGM label, and it had you listed as like Don Gardner, looselyassociated with Dee Dee Gardner, under R&B?
Don Gardner: Dee Dee Ford?
George: Yeah, Dee Dee Ford [chuckles]. It had you listed as an R&B, umm, like type blues singer,
and I was interested because I guess Mother Dot gave us to you as like another jazz musician and I know I’d also found out other things where you had been jazz. And I wanted to know where you made the transition from doing something that was more jazz-oriented to something that was more rhythm and blues, and how you see rhythm and blues…how you saw that like change over, I guess, like the early [nineteen] sixties, late [nineteen] fifties and how it changed since then?
Don Gardner: Well, number one, I started off singing gospel. Then, when I decided to go into the music thing, it was jazz...the same jazz. [inaudible] Dizz and all of them, they were doing what was supposed to be done, so that’s where I went. But when I found out I wasn't that good doing it…I mean, we played it and it was good, but we didn't have that niche that made us outstanding where people wanted to buy it. So I found out singing in the rhythm and blues field, I could make money. It was all about making money. At least for me! [Group laughs] When you get a family and start having kids, you got to make money. So jazz, I might have starved to death, butwith rhythm and blues, I made a beautiful living. And that’s what it’s about. Jazz changedmainly when people started going to clubs and listening to records.
George: So you are saying that people didn't really listen to as many jazz records…?
Don Gardner: Hey, once they started going to and paying five dollars to come in the club and listen to the same records they had at home, I never could understand that, but that’s what they did. All of a sudden in the [nineteen] seventies, people were running to the clubs and paying to dance to the stuff that’s in the jukeboxes. And that’s how they started having DJs in the clubs. Sowhat it boils down to is if you are a club owner and you can pack your joint at five dollars a head and don't have to pay nobody...just have someone play records, you’re going to hire a band? No. It's economics. And well, he would know about that [points to Karon who has a finance concentration]. It's economics. It's a matter of survival. You got to pay bills and all that kind of stuff. And that hurt live music.
George: It’s mostly jazz?
Don Gardner: Yeah. And the other thing is, blacks has never supported their own music...whitey does. If it wasn't for whitey, jazz wouldn't even been going on today. Ahh, blues wouldn't be going on today. You know, every club you go in, if it’s a blues act there, you’re going to find 90 % white.
George: That's true.
Don Gardner: And you say why? I haven't the slightest idea because it's your music. And none of us go to see it. You know, it's sickening to me, but that’s the way it is. And that's why a lot of acts goto Europe, because they can make a living. You can't make a living here unless you have a big record and you're big, you know. But for the average cat that wants to make a living at it, this ain't it. It's sad, but that's the way it goes…and it's all about the bottom line. I hate to put it that way, but that's theway it is. And I didn't make it that way, but that’s the way it is.
Track 4 (transcribed by Georgette Cox)
TaNeeka: When you talk about blacks not attending these blues concerts, are you talking about in the past or are you talking about the present, today?
Don Gardner: Even today, sweetheart, even today. If you put BB King, who is supposed to be the biggest black Blues singer in the world, and Bobby Blanton, and a few other ones together, and put them down at the Wachovia, you stand there and watch who comes to see them. You would see thousands of whiteys and a speck of blacks. [Group laughs] It sounds frightening, but it's the truth. And guess what? They will sing what they hear because they know it. Theywill sing the roles…and act like they’re black, just carrying on. And the black people looking at them saying, ‘What’s wrong with them?’. It's sad, but that's what it is. And you know…I have noanswer for it. But I have seen that in the past I'd say twenty years I've been on the road. I've gone liketo New Orleansto go to clubs…whitey. Blacks up there playing and white people go to concerts…same thing. You go meet George Benson and go to his concert, eighty percent white. What can I tell you? Now, y’all young, maybe y’all can change it. But I can’t. I’m too old for it now…but it's sad that we don'tknow about our own people's music. Now, I have one good thing that I see here that the young cats are really getting into jazz and they’re playing. And I don't think jazz will ever die because young people still experimenting and looking and trying to find new ways to do things. And they getting away from the electronic everything. They are going back....they want to hear the bassplayer and they want to hear the drums. They want to hear the trumpet, and all that electronicstuff they are getting away from slowly, but surely. But nowadays, you can make a record at home in your basement just pushing buttons.
George: What type of musician would you consider yourself?
Don Gardner: Me?
George: Yeah. Like if you were asked, what do you say? Like I’m a jazz musician or I’m an R&B singer? When did you like most enjoy your career?
Don Gardner: When I was making good money and that was in R&B. [Group laughs] I'm serious though.
George: So you consider yourself an R&B singer?
Don Gardner: Yeah…more so than jazz. I’m known most for rhythm and blues, and most of my friends in the business are rhythm and blues. Most of the jazz friends I had have died. You know, Jimmy Smith and Lockjaw and all them I used to travel with on the road, most of them are dead. But I still have a pretty nice number of rhythm and blues artists that I still keep in touch with. But that was the time when I made good money, so I would have to go along with that. I was never really known as a fantastic jazz artist. I was known as rhythm and blues artist or just a song stylist or something like that.
George: What is a song stylist?
Don Gardner: A song stylist is a person that interprets the music, and everytime you hear them you know its them because you know how they interpret something. Frank Sinatra was a song stylist.
George: I see. It's like taking standards and making it your own?
Don Gardner: Yeah. You can take anything, but when you hear it, and they do it, you know it's them. 'Cause you know what their phrasing is and what their whatever…You got to know it whenyou hear it. And that is what you call a song stylist. At least, that’s what I call a song stylist and most people do. But when you hear a singer, a singer is a person that can sing anything and don't necessarily sound like themselves doing it. You know, like Aretha singing opera. But one thing about Aretha, you know that’s Aretha singing opera from the way she does it. But there are some singers that can sing anything; they're just singers. What you give to them, they'll sing it. They will sing it their way, but they don't deviate from the melodies and stuff. They try to stay right where the person that wrote it did it. A song stylist will take it and read it and then try to interpret it and try to figure out what the fellow was saying or woman was saying when she wrote it and what she was trying to convey. And then try to express that. That's the difference between the two. I mean, that’s my opinion, I might be wrong. But you can tell…when a person sings a song and it moves you, then you know that that person has thought about it, either lived part of it, or got something from it.