Chart Listing –Homosexuality
1
Affirmative
2.The Law Of Moses Condemned Homosexual Relations
3.Homosexuality Is Put In Same Category As Bestiality
4.Romans 1:24,26-27
5.I Corinthians 6:9
6.I Timothy 1:10
7.Malakoi
8.Arsenokoites
9.Matt 19:4-5 Marriage Between MALE and FEMALE
10.Genesis 19:1-24 Sodom and Gomorrah
11.I Corinthians 6:11Such WERE Some Of You
12.What Led To What?
38.Why Am I Here ?
Rebuttal
13.Lev18:22, 20:13Old Testament Not Binding Today
14.Lev18:22, 20:13Abomination = Ritual Uncleanness?
15.Leviticus 18:22, 20:13As He Lieth With A Woman
16.Romans 1:24-27 Because Associated With Idolatry
17.Romans 1:24-27 Only Condemning Inversion?
18.Rom1:26 God Went Against "Nature" In Rom11:21-24?
19.I Cor 6:9 Only Condemning Abuse Of Homosexuality?
20.Heterosexual Inversion?
Negative
21.Ruth and Naomi - Heterosexuals All The Way
22.Ruth and Naomi - An MCC Admission
23.Were David And Jonathan Gay?
24.I Samuel 18:1 Other Examples Of "Ahab" (Love)
25.I Samuel 18:1 Other Example Uses Of The Word "Knit"
26.I Samuel 20:30Confusion Of Mother's Nakedness
27.I Samuel 20:41David And Jonathan KISSED
28.I Samuel 20:41 David "enlarged"
29.II Samuel 1:26Passing The Love Of Women
39.Ezek16:49-50 Sodom’s Problem Was Pride,Selfishness?
30.Luke 7:7 Pais
31.John 3:16
32.Ephesians 2:8-9
33.Jesus Said Nothing Against Homosexuality?
34.Born That Way?
35.Obedience Is Necessary
36.I Love Brian Piccalo
37.Twin Studies
1
The Law Of Moses
CondemnedHomosexual Relations
Leviticus 18:22: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 20:13: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Homosexual activity was called anAbomination
Homosexuality Is Put In The
Same Category AsBestiality
Leviticus 18:22 / Leviticus 18:23Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. / Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
Leviticus 20:13 / Leviticus 20:15-16
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. / And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
This demonstrates my opponent’s position to be absurd … unless you also think bestiality is okay.
Romans 1:24,26-27
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves ... For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural useinto that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Do the terms used to refer to homosexuality here show approval or disapproval?
•uncleanness
•dishonour
•vile
•change the natural use
•against nature
•leaving the natural use
•unseemly
•error
Homosexuality here is condemned along with: fornication, wickedness, murder, deceit, haters of God (vs.29-31). Will my opponent also deny that these are sins?
I Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers. Neither 1homosexuals, nor 2sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, will inherit the kingdom of God. (New King James Version)
1.catamites, those submitting to homosexuals
2.male homosexuals(NKJV footnotes)
I Corinthians 6:9 condemns homosexual relations
I Timothy 1:10
9We also know this: The law was not made for a good man, but for people who are lawless, rebels, ungodly, sinners, unholy, not religious, father-killers, mother-killers, murderers, 10sexual sinners, homosexuals, slave traders, liars, and those who break promises. These and other things are against the healthy teaching as found in the glorious gospel of the blessed God which He trusted to me. (The Simple English New Testament)
New American Standard - homosexuals
New King James Version - sodomites
The Living Bible - homosexuals
I Timothy 1:10 condemns homosexual activity
Malakoi
Paul condemned those described as malakoi (“homosexuals” NKJV, "effeminate" KJV) in ICorinthians6:9.
John R.W. Stott, Homosexual Marriage, 1985 - It meant males (not necessarily boys) who played the passive role in homosexual intercourse
This word is defined as (Strong's #3120):
Arndt and Gingrich (“The Bauer-Danker Lexicon is among the most highly respected dictionaries of Biblical Greek,” Wikipedia) - ..effeminate, especially of catamites, men and boys who allow themselves to be misused homosexually
Thayer (professor of New Testament criticism in the Harvard Divinity School, 1884-1901, from hisGreek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) - effeminate, of a catamite, a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
Strong - fig. a catamite: - effeminate, soft
Wigram-Green - effeminate (specifically as of homosexual males)
I Cor 6:9 condemns gay relations (the passive/effeminate role)
Arsenokoites
Paul condemned those described as arsenokoites in:
- I Cor 6:9 “homosexuals” (NASV), "abusers of themselves with mankind"(KJV)
- ITim1:10“homosexuals” (NASV), "them that defile themselves with mankind"(KJV)
John R.W. Stott, Homosexual Marriage, 1985 - the Greeks used this expression to describe the one who took the active role
This word is defined as (Strong's #733):
Thayer - one who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite
Arndt and Gingrich - a male homosexual, pederast, sodomite
Strong - a sodomite
Wigram-Green - male homosexual, sodomite
It is translated as:
homosexuals - New American Standard
sodomites - New King James Version
homosexuals - Simple English
homosexuals - Green's Interlinear
sodomites - The New Testament Translated from the Latin Vulgate
partakers in homosexuality - New Berkley Version in Modern English
those who participate in homosexuality - The Amplified New Testament
homosexualist - The New Testament Kliest and Lilly
men who practice sodomy - Charles B. Williams
Matthew 19:4-5, I Corinthians 7:2
Marriage Should Be Between
MALE And FEMALE
Matthew 19:4-5 (Jesus): Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
I Corinthians 7:2:... to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
Genesis 19:1-24 - Sodom and Gomorrah
Ezekiel 16:49-50 was the sin of Sodom just the sin of inhospitality?
- Genesis 18:20Sodom and Gomorrah's sin was called "very grievous" even before the visitors came
- 19:4-5 the men of Sodom requested homosexual relations with the visitors
- 19:7 the proposed homosexual relations were called "wicked"; Lot rebuffs their request
- 19:9 after the rebuff, then the men of Sodom resorted to attempted rape
- 19:24Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their wickedness, in particular, their homosexuality
Jude verse 7 the Bible calls their sin:
•"fornication" - not inhospitality
•"going after strange flesh" - homosexual
This Bible story has been so well known and understood through the years that the term "sodomite" is now used to refer to homosexuals.
I Corinthians 6:11
Such Were Some Of You
Referring to those who had been guilty of homosexuality (and other sins), Paul said "And such were some of you."
Here the word “were” being past tense proves these people were no longer homosexuals (they had ceased their homosexual lifestyle when they repented), so → people can stop this sin, and people should stop this sin.
Gay churches contend homosexuals can't help/stop their practice because they are born that way. If that is so, then I Corinthians 6:11 proves homosexuals are not born that way, since it shows the sin can be stopped.
Rom 1:26-27 also proves gays are not born gay, as it calls the sin “against nature.” As Holger Neubaer put it crudely, “the body parts don’t fit.”
I ask you to be like these Corinthians and stop practicing homosexuality. I am not being ugly, but I love your souls, and want to see you in heaven. You can avoid God's judgment for practicing homosexuality by repenting of / quitting this sin. Others in our day have done it; you can do it too!
What Led To What?
Did your honest Biblical interpretation on this issue lead to your homosexual practice, or did your desire and practice lead to your interpretation?
All the testimonies of Metropolitan Community Church writers that I have ever read, indicate they first had the desire to be a homosexual and struggled against it (perhaps as a member of a denomination that taught against it). Then suddenly, when they found the MCC church and its teaching, they discovered the Bible approved of homosexuality all along!
Don't you see this is desire driving interpretation? Our understanding of God's word should control our desires and shape our practice, not the other way around.
I am kindly asking each individual here to examine your heart. Do you really believe the Bibleactually condones such behavior, or do you have an ulterior motive(sexual desire) for believing such?
II Corinthians 13:5: Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves ...
Exactly why do you believe homosexuality is right? Is it simply because you want it to be that way?
Leviticus 18:22, 20:13
Old Testament Not Binding Today
I agree with this 100%, but does my opponent mean bestiality (condemned almost in the same breath in the Leviticus passages) is also not wrong?
My opponent is admitting homosexuality was wrong under the Old Testament; that it was wrong for the Israelites. This proves:
- God would have required Israelites with homosexual “orientation” to go against their orientation. This contradicts the MCC view that as long as you go with your orientation (no “inversion”), you are okay.
- Saying "I was born this way" is no excuse. If any Israelites were "born homosexuals," they would still have had to abstain.
- Actually, since God would never make something a sin (even in the Old Testament) that is genetic (not by choice), this admission proves homosexuals are not born that way.
My opponent's admission that homosexuality was condemned in the Old Testament proves his position on the New Testament passages is wrong!
Leviticus 18:22, 20:13
Abomination = Ritual Uncleanness?
I guess the adultery (Leviticus18:20, 20:10) and the bestiality (Leviticus18:23, 20:15-16) of the same context are just "ritual uncleanness" also?
The same Hebrew word is found in:
Deuteronomy 12:31 abomination ... their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods - only “ritual uncleanness”?
Ezekiel22:11one hath committed abomination with his neighbor's wife
II Kings 16:3 made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen
II Chron 28:3 burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen
Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord
Proverbs 6:16-19 seven are an abomination - lying, murder
Ezekiel 33:26 ye work abomination, and ye defile every one his neighbor's wife
Are all the above sins also just examples of "ritual uncleanness"?
Violators of the Levitical censure against Homosexuality were put to death. Why, if it was only ritual uncleanness?
Leviticus18:22, 20:13
As He Lieth With A Woman
The MCC says these 2 verses are only condemning, as Dr. Paul R. Johnson put it:
To force a male to be used 'as a woman' was the most degrading thing possible. Moses said that it was wrong for a man to be used as a woman ... Gays do not think that way. Gay males do not use other men as women and lesbians do not use women as substitute men. We are gay. We are sexually attracted to our own gender.
My opponent is misunderstanding this phrase:
•Whenever a man lies with another man sexually, he is lying with that man "as a woman,” not just when he views that man as a woman.
•When two heterosexual men just sleep in the same bed (maybe to save money on a trip), with no sexual contact intended or exchanged, they are lying together in a sense, but not lying together "as with a woman" (sexually). That is what Moses has in mind with the phrase "as with womankind," he means lie together sexually, not just sleeping in the same bed as brothers sometimes do.
•Everybody knows what Thayer means when he defines "arsenokoites" as "one who lies with a male AS WITH A FEMALE, a sodomite."
Leviticus18:22 and 20:13 condemn homosexual relations!
Romans 1:24,26-27
Because Associated With Idolatry ?
If this argument has any merit at all, then the other sins mentioned in the same context (fornication,murder,deceit, haters of God, etc., verses 29-31) would also only be wrong when they are associated with idolatry.
The language of the passage condemns the act of homosexuality by itself:
- vile affections – driven by their personal affections, not just for the idol
- change the natural use–the sex act itself is unnatural
- burned in their lust – doing it to satisfy their own lusts, not for the idol
John Boswell (champion homosexualscholar) tells why this argument is "inadequate":
… it is clear that the sexual behaviour itself is objectionable to Paul, not merely its associations. … Paul is not describing cold-blooded, dispassionate acts performed in the interest of ritual or ceremony: he states very clearly that the parties involved "burned in their lust one toward another." It is unreasonable to infer from the passage that there was any motive for the behavior other than sexual desire. (Christianity, Social Intolerance & Homosexuality,p.108)
Richard F. Lovelace explains the connection better than I can – The disorders in vs.24-32 are not wrong because they issue from idolatry, they are wrong in and of themselves, and Paul mentions them because they prove the spiritual bankruptcy of idolatrous cultures.
To any extent homosexuality is connected with idolatry, it simply compounds the sin.
Romans 1:24,26-27
Only Condemning Inversion?
Opponent's argument = Romans 1condemns a heterosexually oriented person performing homosexual acts, or even a homosexually oriented person performing heterosexual acts. They would be doing what is "unnatural" for them.
Romans 1:24,26-27 doesn't say anything like that. The text calls homosexual activity unnatural; and the Bible never calls heterosexual activity unnatural.
Romans 1:24,26-27 condemns people for going “against nature” period, not for going against their nature, as my opponent would have you to believe.
“Nature" here is explained well by Matthew 19:4-5:
... he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife
Romans 1:27 says men "burned in their lust one toward another." This shows their desire (orientation) was for men. They were not going against their desire/lust; instead they were satisfying their desire/orientation, and God called their desire ("affections") vile, and the sexual acts uncleanness, dishonour, and error.
Romans 1:24,26-27
God Went Against Nature In Rom 11:21,24?
Actually, Romans 11:16-24 does not describe God going against nature. An analogy or illustration is being made. The Gentiles replacing the Israelites in the position of favor with God is compared to grafting a wild olive branch into a good olive tree. The grafting of a branch from one tree to another is unnatural; the Gentiles becoming God's people is compared to that, but is not unnatural. It was based upon free will decisions by both Jew and Gentile.
Thayer's definition for "nature" (Strong's #5449) in Romans 1:26:
the nature of things, the force, laws, order, of nature; as opposed to what is monstrous, abnormal, perverse ... that which is contrary to nature's laws, against nature, Rom 1:26
Yes, homosexuality is just as unnatural as grafting a wild olive branch into a good olive tree. And more importantly, homosexuality is sinful !
I Corinthians 6:9
Only Condemning The Abuse Of Homosexuality?
Since I Corinthians 6:9 in the KJV reads "abusers of themselves with mankind," my opponent reasons that only the abuse of homosexuality is wrong; but that so called legitimate homosexual relations are proper and right.
By this reasoning, someone could reason that Leviticus18:23 (“Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith”) only condemns a “defiling” bestiality, but that "legitimate" bestiality relations are proper and right:
Just like Lev 18:23 is saying whenever a man lies with a beast he defiles himself:
•I Timothy 1:10 ("defile themselves with mankind") is saying that whenever a man lies (sexually) with another man he defiles himself with mankind
•I Corinthians 6:9 is saying that whenever a man lies with another man he abuses himself with mankind.
Actually "abusers of themselves with mankind" (and "defile themselves with mankind" in ITim1:10) comes from one Greek word (arsenokoites) - defined as:
- Thayer - one who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite
- Arndt and Gingrich - a male homosexual, pederast, sodomite
Heterosexual Inversion?
My opponent says my affirmative passages only condemn heterosexual "inversion." By this he means these passages only condemn those who are naturally heterosexual but who are performing homosexual acts, but that these passages don't condemn those who are "naturally" homosexual performing acts that are natural for them.
Romans 1:27 says men "burned in their lust one toward another." This shows that their desire (orientation) was for men. They were not going against their desire; instead they were satisfying their desire/orientation, and they were still condemned for it. The truth is, these passages describe all homosexuals. Homosexuality is never natural - Romans1:24,26-27.