Floyds Fork TDML Point Source Subcommittee

Floyds Fork TDML Point Source Subcommittee

Minutes

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1-30-13

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1:00 Pm

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Ky Farm Bureau office

Attendees / Facilitator: Amy Siewert, KDOW; Casey Doyle KDOW (Louisville); Andrea Fredenburg, Elizabeth Coyle, Kaye Brothers, Courtney Seitz KDOW; Karen Schaffer URS/MSD; Joe Burns KRWA; Bud Hixson Badwaterjournal.com;
Joe Cain KYFB; Teena Halbig FFEA
Scenarios:

• Buffer around all streams—need width of buffer-suggestion was made of 100 ft on mainstem and 50 ft on tribs
• Climate change—need specifics from trend analysis
• Extrapolated rainfall with full development and 10 year build out
• Remove all septics
• Remove 100 septics in one small watershed
• Reduce limits for 4 majors by ½
• Remove all facility discharges except LaGrange
• Have one permit limit for all facilities—need information on technology limit
• Remove all facility discharges to a regional facility on the Salt River
• All facility dischargers meet DMR limits
• All facility dischargers meet under the DMR limits
• All facility dischargers discharging at full capacity
• All facility discharges discharging at capacity with best available technology for majors and minors

Follow Up Tasks
EPA/Tetra Tech

• Is there a way for EPA to show how the scenario outputs will display- examples from other models in other states?

KDOW
Status of monitoring report? When available and are there any new findings? Will this be presented at the TAC?Sub-committee

• Karen Schaffer will contact Bill Caldwell and googleexfiltration rates
• Elizabeth Coyle will look at best technology.
• Teena Halbig to determine forest buffer size for scenario

courtney Seitz / For modeling SSOs, how are SSO strengths determined?
Brian Watson / No water quality information for SSO’s, only flow and date when overflow occurred. Had to come up with something common to watershed. Most medium. Some weak. Small component of loading.
courtney / Consider waters to US?
Brian / Yes, waters to US.
Amy Siewert / Let’s go around the room and introduce ourselves.
courtney Seitz / After reviewing the Floyds Fork Watershed Modeling Report, I don’t quite understand how septic tanks were modeled. Requested Brian to provide a general step through for modeling of septic tanks.
Brian / The Health Department were contacted within each county to evaluate the total number of septics within each county and to figure out the number of failing septics. Health Department’s in all counties, except Oldham, guessed that septics in the county were operating properly at about 80%, or in other words, 20% were failing. In Oldham County, the failing rate was guessed at 30%.
courtney / Then, we have non- and failing (operating properly). Septic has sludge to surface available for runoff when it rains. Report as land use. Document concentrating on non failing. Do you want more information?
Travel time and decay; allowed flow from septics between septic and stream.
Karen Schaffer / How is it distributed?
Brian / Failing septics were distributed uniformly across the low intensity development landuse.
karen schaffer / If there are 10,000 septic systems county-wide and 50% of low intensity development in the county is in Floyds Fork, then the assumption is that 5,000 septic systems are in Floyds Fork in that county.
Brian / Still uniform among watershed- land-use loading rate
amy Siewert / Don’t want to spend too much time on septic. Discussion more appropriate at the other subcommittee meeting that includes septic.
teena Halbig / Middletown Industrial Park. Plant hasn’t been connected yet. Up for review.
courtney / No information.
Brian / In model Ky000843, pg. 27 of current report.
teena / Ammonia problems. Strictly focusing on phosphorus/nitrogen.
Brian / Looking at it. Have DMR data; ammonia Table 3.7.
bud Hixson / Groundwater flow calculation. Any investigation of leaking of lagoon?
Brian / Increased nutrients; probably won’t see impact.
bud / Stormwater permits, give overview how you are handling.
ann Fredenburg / Brian,does not handle KDOW permits.Are you asking How is MS4 handled in model?
BUD / Yes, is the MS4 permit included in the mode?. Is the KYTC MS4 permit included?
Brian / Those permits not included in model. Point Source included 73 facilities. MS4 point source not included, rather it’s included as a land use where outfalls are located. Driveways, parking lots – impervious; no distinction.
bud / Five MSD had most data. Would not improve? Average data?
Brian / Yes, if data is available for comparison. Calibration, previous data adjusted up or down.
karen schaffer / This question may be out of place but how has KDOW handled MS4 loadings that come from KYTC MS4?
ann / For bacteria TMDLs, we looked at breaking out KYTC from city MS4 and it was less than 1%. We met with KYTC and obtained average width for roads and right of way for 2 lane and 4 lane roads. We clipped this in GIS andit was <1% of the MS4 in Lexington so theMS4 area was combined with the city and allocated as a lump.
teena / Less than 1 percent included.
ann / Yes the KYTC MS4 was included with the city, couldn’t split it out.
teena / Just had other factors, wanted to keep in?
ann / Couldn’t get accurate information, we have no way to say this is your boundary for KYTC.
teena / Keep in?
bud / Your talking about One stream bacteria.
ann / We are now working on nutrients.
bud / Many impairmentsTo doTMDL.
ann / It is Sediment impaired as well.
bud / Why not doing sediment TMDL for TSS.
ann / Ann explained about the current work being conducted to determine a protocol to develop sediment TMDLs.
bud / How can citizens urge you to add another pollutant to process.
elizabeth coyle / Doing TMDLs for the impairments; bacteria/nutrients
ann / It is Sediment impaired.
teena / I encouraged you to look at TMDL for erosion at the first meeting.
bud Hixson / Criticized; Are major treatment works discharging to new controls?
elizabeth / Ammonia model considered.The components that would influence the chemistry of the nutrients were considered in the model
ann / At this point we don’t know until we have results.
bud / In terms of modeling subtract – still be left with pollution.
ann / Unimpaired.
teena / Bring information to TAC Committee.
amy siewert / Discussed posting of the monitoring report by the TAC meeting.
karen / Will the presentation be the same as the one given at the November 2012 TAC meeting?
amy / Lara will be presenting a more generalized presentation to discuss the monitoring effort at the public meeting, not at the TAC.
amy N. / Tornado warning passed, I am on for now.
teena / Why hasn’t KDOW done something? If things were taken care of sooner we wouldn’t be having these problems.
elizabeth / In a perfect world bridges would never collapse; water perfect all the time; and no pollution. In reality we are often limited by financial and technical capabilities. A community can’t build what it can’t afford and we can’t expect reductions that are beyond our technical treatment capabilities.
teena / We have been unable to get KDOW to sample. Need to find a resolution.
bud / A graph nutrient loading during or after a new event. Can it kick out a resolution. What is the resolution of the model?
Brian / Floyd Forks has 202 watersheds.
bud / Time of day, output can be daily. A good graph 30 day; point source flow corrected to model. 30-day testing nutrient/pollution. How do I take measurement?
Brian / If no new point source through this meeting today – change/modify. Predicted output would be; same. When we have an input we say we have data available. Model calibrated; change in land use breakdown. Don’t want to use a statement model output to measure data. Scenario process.
amy Siewert / Let’s get some scenarios.
karen / MSD’s wastewater scenarios were provided by e-mail. Even though these changes to wastewater treatment will occur over several years, MSD agreed that it was ok to combine the changes into a single scenario.
ann / Have information from MSD and Oldham.
karen / I don’t want to speak for Oldham County. Kevin Gibson identified three facilities that were being taken off line in another subcommittee meeting.
bud / What about PeeWee Valley?
ann / They said Green Valley off line; Buckley coming off April/May; looking at three others.
bud / Scenarios?
karen / Scenarios provided by MSD are:
Berrytown and Starview Elimination and diversion to Floyds Fork in 2013/2014
Floyds Fork Expansion Completion in 2013
JTown Elimination in 2015 - 2.8 MGD to DRG, 1.2 MGD to Cedar Creek
Lake of the Woods and Chenoweth Run Elimination in 2015 to Cedar Creek
Lake Forest WQTC Elimination and Diversion to Floyds Fork in 2012
teena / Doesn’t make sense. Chenoweth; new capacity isn’t taken. JTown pump station? Have public facility not connecting to sewer line that’s right there
Casey / Is it a force main? Can’t connect to a force main.
bud / Red Pen ??? Is there a point source permit?
ann / This was a waste management site. Just about all wells plugged as told by David Jackson.
bud / Classification – groundwater plumes any reason to impact?
teena / Heavy medals need sampling. 10,000 drums buried there.
Joe Burn / I have a scenario if I remove 100 septic to public sewer. What do we gain by extending wastewater lines?
karen / The wastewater from septic systems needs to be diverted to a wastewater facility, it is inaccurate to remove it from the model.
ann / Have a scenario to remove 100 % of septics.
Joe Burn / How do we model that factor in gain? Looking down the road – extend sewer lines?
Brian / Look at total; like scenario percent within county) 100 is small really hard to see impact). All go to stream.
elizabeth / ID Areas that already have septic systems then determine those nearest the receiving waters within a specified distance and those within a certain distance from existing sewers Those near sewers are most likely to be removed and those nearest the receiving waters are most like to contribute to WQ problems
Brian / That’s a good qualification. Sensitivity input (getting rid of septics) Management scenarios.
karen / Septics are a small part of the overall load.
elizabeth / It came up the other day, we do have karst and it does make a difference in travel time to the streams
Brian / Yes one of the suggestions was to change the travel times which might impact the contribution of the septic systems.
bud / Wouldn’t you have to be sensitive to how the mass balance changes with the SSOs.
If off-line contact sensitive; you have to add it back in.
Brian / Yes, I think some analysis would have to be done to determine the capacity of the treatment plant itself, to make sure the facility has the capacity. In terms of the scenario, we would say in a perfect world, if you did have the capacity, what would be the impact.
karen / We’re really looking at whether there is a WQ benefit for diverting the flow from septics to wastewater facilities. It is unrealistic to think that all septic systems will be removed, but it could be useful to simulate from a modeling perspective.
bud / A development could come in and hook septics to line. New flow amount different concentration. Really have to calculate. Sanitary downstream hydrology.
elizabeth / Capacity certification; SSO checks number if no room it is not allowed.
courtney / Probably.
bud / They hook on anyway
elizabeth / Need double check.
bud / (Controversial)
Brian / Sirens going off so I am leaving and getting off call now.
amy Siewert / We have one scenario.
teena / Forest buffer along creek; tributaries might make a difference; more pollutants come out; anything better than nothing.
elizabeth / Forest buffers?
ann / There are recommended buffer size based upon what you want. Bank stabilization, filtering, wildlife corridor. What do you want?
teena / Looking at all three. Go from high water mark disturbs us. Measuring back flash flood; coming up 15 foot. Need larger buffer.
joe cain / Sediment buffers
eliabeth / Forest buffers do multiple uses. Shade makes difference. Species; algae content.
bud / MGD Oldham cut in ½ top 4 – Industrial?
bud / What part is EPA playing?
amy Newbold / Tetra Tech delivers to KDOW tweaked model.
amy Siewert / Any more questions or scenarios?
amy Newbold / KDOW compiling scenarios and will take out redundancies. Final list of scenarios should be presented by KDOW at the next TAC.
? / Suggest a scenario to cut the nutrient loading half for the 4 majors. Another scenario to remove all wastewater discharges to a regional facility on the Salt
teena / Way to much work to look at specific over flows (MR).
bud / Which one is identified as the dirtiest? From Oldham on down to Henry County. Is there one that needs to be addressed?
ann / Need to define dirtiest. Do you mean a facility with a large flow and large load or a facility with higher concentration but smaller flow and smaller load? – l
BUD / Which is the dirtiest?
Courtney / The smaller facilities are worse.
karen / How are results of scenarios displayed? Maps or graphs? It would be helpful to see examples of how results of scenarios are displayed at the next TAC meeting. Scenarios could be from Floyds Fork or another modeling project. This would help the TAC agree on the best way to portray scenario results.
bud / Could be a scenario; benefit/cost analysis.
courtney / Concentrated areas see improvement but larger areas you might not see any.
teena / 6 golf courses. Those are in model.
ann / Take off all facilities except for LaGrange for a scenario
teena / LaGrange, were they notified?
Karen / Have any TMDLs considered weather changes or climate changes that can cause larger storms and droughts over the next 10-20 years? This may be an important consideration for the long term planning horizon.
ann / I have thought about this. Need information to predictT-For example 100 year storm happening every 3 years. Drought every other year?
karen / Are any models being done that consider weather / climate change?
ann / I saw a map in Water Quantity for entire US with prediction on future wetter or drier than current. .
elizabeth / Need trend analysis. Temperature/Rainfall; 10-20 year comparison – get trend. Zone/Boundaries talked about, I don’t think it would be that hard. Dry or wet weather. Lots of rain storm data out there. Try to predict, need to consider weather.
karen / I agree; some kind of model to attach to Floyd Forks. Who is the drought coordinator? I assume KY will be wetter.
ann / Bill Caldwell is the drought coordinator. The map showed Western KY as dryer and Bluegrass area east as wetter.
teena / Loss of Ash and Elm trees. How much would that effect Floyds Fork since they were doing forest?
ann / Lose 70 % don’t really know. Need information from you on how many acres would be lost.
karen / Don’t know of any data readily available. Wouldn’t change the size of the forest, just trees in the forest lost.
elizabeth / Rough assumptions.
elizabeth / Land Use.
casey / Would that change anything? We have more trees cut/blown down than would be lost by Ash borer. Development impact?
Amy Siewert / Any other?
Casey / Scenario where all plants are just under their permit limits.
ann / We have a scenario of all plants discharging at design capacity and full permit limits. Is that ok?
karen / This scenario could use one permit limit for phosphorus.
amy Siewert / Is there a number you want in scenario?
elizabeth / Know what’s available, cost aside; have technology for phosphorus and nitrogen. May find it cost competitive. Money will become an issue. Let’s investigate majors? Minors? Upfront capitol costs.
karen / Minor facilities typically have more frequent compliance problems so it may be beneficial to include a scenario with different phosphorus permit limit for minor facilities.
Joe Cain / Chesapeake Bay area study had info on best technology.
Elizabeth / Definitely. Run DMR’s easiest use DMR data. Percent removal.
karen / All the effluent data for phosphorus has been concentration not percent removal.
elizabeth / Do sewer lines run parallel to creek, general age of interceptors?
teena / Different data.
joe burns / LOGIC might have data.
ann / Don’t think they are in the model.
Elizabeth / When groundwater is up and gets in pipes. But, when dry the opposite happens. If to have a good model to rely on.
casey / How do you prove it’s leaking?
elizabeth / Assumption, quantifying it I don’t know. Would like to know how much. The age of pipes. Identify sources properly.
teena / Fiberglass, I know some are.
courtney / Assumption hard to verify.
elizabeth / Need interceptors information- age? Oldest pipes are in worse condition is a reasonable assumption Are there wells between the interceptors and the creek?
karen / KY groundwater branch may have groundwater monitoring data that could help characterize exfiltration from sewage collection systems
joe Burns / Apply down line?
teena / Leaking sewer; flow will follow water line.