DENIS MARCEL GAUDREAULT, Previously Sworn
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 30th, 1998
--- Upon commencing at 10:05 a.m.
--- Accused present
DENIS MARCEL GAUDREAULT, previously sworn
THE REGISTRAR: Counsel satisfied that all members of the jury are present?
MR. COOPER: Content.
MR. McKECHNIE: Content.
MS. MULLIGAN: Content.
THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.
Ms. Mulligan.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (continued) BY MS. MULLIGAN:
Q. Mr. Gaudreault, when you were testifying in chief, Mr. Cooper was asking you questions, and on November 4th you told the jury about this phone call that came into your house to Stewart's phone, he was in the washroom and the calcu- lator and all of that, but you told us that just prior to that you'd been at Jamie's house, that Stewart had come in there ---
A. That's correct.
Q. --- and had that phone call in the washroom there as well, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you will recall you told us about how you had to get out of there, you didn't want to see Stewart, right?
A. Well that's correct.
Q. You didn't want him to know you'd been there freebasing or smoking crack cocaine with Jamie all night.
A. That's right.
Q. And you knew Stewart was upset so that's the last time you wanted to see him was when he was upset.
A. Yeah.
Q. So you told us you went out the back door because - you correct me if I'm wrong - but the washroom would've been near the front of Jamie's house, right?
A. Right at the front door.
Q. Yeah. So in order to go out the front door you would've had to pass right by him and you didn't want to do that.
A. That's correct.
Q. So you told us you went out the back door and if you'll recall, sir, put us all in the picture, you went out the back door and over the fence -- right? -- to your yard, and you told us about the dogs barking and how, you know, you were concerned about that that Stewart might hear that, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And even though at the time it probably wasn't funny, it was kind of an interesting story that you told us, that you had to run and you were running and you were con- cerned about getting away from Stewart and the dogs' bark, right? That was --
A. Well not to get Stewart to see me at Jamie's, yeah.
Q. Sorry?
A. Not to have Stewart finding me at Jamie all night, yeah.
Q. Yeah. So you were trying to get back to your house quickly and quietly through the back way.
A. Well I don't know if it was quietly but I got there quickly.
Q. Okay. And when you got in as it turned out Michael Vanasse was sitting there anyway.
A. Yeah.
Q. And, sir, I'll refer you to some evidence you gave on December 10th, 1992 about this very same incident. Page 100.
MR. COOPER: Your Honour, Ms. Bair is ill today and I expect she'll be ill for a couple of days. Mr. Dandyk will be taking her place.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. MULLIGAN:
Q. At page 100, sir, the question is:
"Q.Now just to complete that area we were on this morning, Mr. Gaudreault, you have now returned to your house and you said originally that your concern was to escape Mr. Stewart seeing you at Jamie Declare's, right?
A. Yeah."
MR. COOPER: What was the date?
MS. MULLIGAN: December 10th '92. '92, Mr. Dandyk. I apologize for the technical difficulties.
MR. DANDYK: It may be the 12th of December '91, Ms. Mulligan.
MS. MULLIGAN: Okay. I have it as '92.
MR. COOPER: And it's not the 10th, it's the 12th. The month is right.
MS. MULLIGAN: So it's the 12th of December?
MR. COOPER: 12 December '91, page 100.
MS. MULLIGAN: All right.
Q. Starting again then and I'm focusing, sir, on what you've told us about going through the backyard and
avoiding Mr. Stewart and the dogs barking.
Now on the 12th of December '91:
"Q.Now just to complete that area we were on this morning, Mr. Gaudreault, you've now returned to your house and you said originally that your concern was to escape Mr. Stewart seeing you at Jamie Declare's, right?
A. Yeah.
Q.And when you came upstairs Sandy had already gone downstairs and told you in a quiet voice that Stewart was up there.
A.Well, we heard somebody knock at the door.
Q. No, no, but she had been downstairs.
A.Yeah.
Q.She specifically told you and Jamie Stew- art was there, right?
A. Yeah.
Q.And did she tell you he was in the washroom?
A.I can't recall if she did or not.
Q.You figured he would be because you've said he always went into the washroom.
A. Well yeah.
Q.So you wanted to come upstairs and avoid seeing Stewart, right?
A. Correct.
Q.And wouldn't the easiest way of doing that have been to leave by the back door?
A.Can't leave from the back door.
Q. Why?
A.Because it's all -- it was all barricaded I guess.
Q. The back door was barricaded?
A. Yeah, snow -- snowed in.
Q. There is a back door, though?
A.Yeah, there's back doors in all the units.
Q. Sorry?
A. There's back doors -- back doors.
Q. Yeah, there's like a back porch?
A. Yeah.
Q.And you go out the back. So you're saying on that day that the back door of this particular residence it wasn't physically barricaded, there was just snow, is that what you're saying?
A. Correct.
Q. Is this like a sliding patio door?
A. No.
Q.It's like a door you go out onto a porch, a swinging door?
A.I think, as a matter of fact I think the door was all taped.
Q.Now you're saying the door was taped?
A.I'm not -- I'm just saying I think it was all taped.
Q. You didn't look at it of course ...
A. No.
Q. ... that day?
A. No.
Q.You simply went out the front door.
A. Correct.
Q.I take it it's just by chance that you happened to be present yet again for another conversation over the phone where Mr. Stewart is talking, it was just by chance that that happened.
A. Correct."
Stopping there for a moment, sir, do you recall those questions and answers?
A. Sort of, yes.
Q. Why under oath on that occasion, sir, would you tell the Court that the back door was snowed in and taped and you in fact went out the front door?
A. It was taped when I went out the back door.
Q. Why would you tell the Court on that occa- sion, sir, that you went out the front door, you couldn't go out the back door?
A. Mistake. I couldn't recall exactly but I remember going out the back door because as I pulled it they had some kind of I think it was duct tape on it that surrounded the door and a towel at the bottom, and that's the way I went out. That's what I recall.
Q. But you didn't recall that on December 12th '91 when you testified.
A. No.
Q. Because in fact it wasn't just that, by the time when you said you went out the front a little earlier that same day at page 89:
"Q.Okay, so you're now saying you hear Stew- art make this comment over the phone. Are you eavesdropping at this time?
A. What?
Q.Are you sort of listening in on his conversation?
A.Fuck, I'm trying to get home, I'm trying to get at home as quick as possible. If he knew that I was at Jamie all night doing the freebase I would've got in a lot of trouble.
Q. Well, he knew you were there ...
A. Yeah but ...
Q.... because when he came out of the washroom you were there.
A. Going out.
Q.Just listen, you were listening over the phone what he was saying, you were listening to see if you could figure out what was going on, is that what you're saying?
A. I don't understand what you ...
Q. How did you hear what he said?
A.Because I was just there. I was up.
Q. Just where?
A.Jamie's washroom is, it's different, I know it's about the same, yeah it's the same as mine, it's -- the washroom faces the kitchen, Sandy is in the kitchen, there's a baby on the table, I think there's another one in the playpen, Jamie is cleaning up coming upstairs, this hap- pens.
Q.When Mr. Stewart yells this over the phone and he was -- he was angry and upset you say?
A.Yeah because he was very loud.
Q. He was very loud?
A. Yeah.
Q.You could hear it right through the door?
A.I think they even heard it across the walls like from one side to another.
Q.Even in the next unit you could hear it, is that what you're saying?
A. My living room.
Q. Is that what you're saying?
A. It could've, yeah.
Q.Okay. So Sandy and Jamie obviously would've heard it?
A. Yeah.
Q. And it was loud?
A. Oh yeah, they heard it.
Q. Okay. They heard it.
A.If they remember; if they don't want to remember.
Q.Well there's a lot of ifs in this world, Mr. Gaudreault.
A. Yeah.
Q.We'll find out. Now the point is, sir, that Mr. Stewart was yelling this over the phone. Before or after he yells this you
hear a splash of something going in the toilet.
A.I think it was the same time but I can't tell you.
Q. Okay.
A.All what I heard is a splash and the argu- ments and maybe a splash.
Q.You're trying to make your getaway out the front door but you paused certainly long enough to hear what's going on on the phone.
A. Correct.
Q.So you took the time to wait until you heard what Mr. Stewart was talking about over the phone when you heard the cellular ringing, right?
A.Because I went to, now I remember, I went to ask him for something. He just said 'Go to your house. I'll see you there in a minute'.
Q.Oh, so now you're saying he had a conversation with you?
A.No, I'm just saying that's that that's what I remember.
Q.Just a second. Are you now saying that you had a conversation with Mr. Stewart before you left?
A.Not a conversation. All was -- all what I'm telling you is something that I -- that I remember, like on the way out I wanted to ask him something, he just said 'Go to your house. I'll see you there' and I wasn't saying anything else, no.
Q.Well the bathroom door was closed.
A. He was on his way out.
Q. The bathroom door was closed.
A.He was on his -- like when the argument was taking place like I told you I was there in the hallway.
Q. Yes.
A. Sandy was there, Jamie was on his way up and as Jamie went up Jamie was basically pushing me out the door.
Q. Ah!
A.And as basically pushing me out the door, then he went -- then the washroom door opened and I said 'Well I want to talk to you.' He said 'Just go to your house' because I went in my house, Vanasse was sitting in my dining room."
There's more, sir, but just stopping there for a moment, you could've been talking about going out the front door of the house, aren't you?
A. I don't even recall that.
Q. And you're also talking about having a con- versation with Mr. Stewart who you didn't want to see.
A. I didn't have no conversation with Mr. Stewart.
Q. So when you gave this evidence under oath in December of '92 it was all wrong.
A. No, I went out the back door. Yeah it was.
Q. December '91, it was all wrong.
We go further on page 92, someone sneezes in the courtroom and then:
"Q.The conversation over the phone is taking place, the calculator is splashed in the toilet, you're making your way out, in
fact you had to walk right past the bathroom door to get out, didn't you?, to get out the front door?
A. Yeah.
Q.Right. So as you go out the front door you're saying Mr. Stewart emerges from the bathroom, you have a quick exchange with him, you say 'I want to talk to you' or 'get something from you'. He says 'I'll see you at your place', right?
A. Something like that, yeah.
Q.Okay. You leave to go to your unit.
A. Correct."
Remember those questions and answers, sir?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. Are you prepared to agree, sir, if it's in the transcript that you gave those answers?
A. Yeah.
Q. Sir, part of your confusion back then, do you recall, you sort of wavered back and forth over time as to whether the phone call where you say Mr. Stewart said "If you and your old man think you're going to get away with this you've got something coming", you've wavered as to whether that phone call took place at your house or at Jamie Declare's house, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. At times you've had it taking place at Jamie's house.
A. Well yeah, I couldn't remember exactly.
Q. But, sir, the point is you don't you often say all these things, you've given a whole conversation about going out the front door and hearing the phone conversa-
tion. If you didn't remember, sir, you could've just said I don't remember.
A. I can't answer that.
Q. Well when did this when did it come back to you the story about the dogs barking and running over the fence and all that, when did that come back to you?
A. Thinking about everything. Like when I first testified in '91 I was -- to begin with I wasn't interested in doing it and I was scared, it was the first time that I ever done it in front of people.
Q. And, sir, I suggest to you that what actu- ally happened is at some point later you asked the police what Jamie Declare could remember, right?
A. No.
Q. You never asked the police?
A. I've asked them, I've asked them what -- if they had a talk with Jamie and they said yeah but they can't discuss what Jamie had to say.
Q. They never told you that Jamie couldn't remember anything?
A. Something like that was mentioned.
Q. And I suggest to you, sir, that what hap- pened thereafter is the phone call takes place at your house. Jamie is no longer pushing you out the front door, you've made your escape out the back door and the phone call takes place at your house.
A. The calculator dropped in Jamie's washroom.
Q. The phone call, sir, the "broad from Cum- berland."
A. The phone call about the bitch, yeah, that was at my house.
Q. But at times you have testified, and you know you have, -- right? -- sir, that it happened ---
A. That I wasn't sure which house it happened at, you're right.
Q. Indeed on this day, having testified, sir, to both versions on this day, to be fair to you at page 99, beginning at the bottom of page 98:
"Q.All right. And did anything else happen that day? We're still in the early morning hours, am I right?, when all this is hap- pening, this happens fairly quickly?
A.Well you're asking me something, to remember something that, you know, like I just finished explaining to you I was at Jamie all night and Jamie, I'm pretty sure Jamie will vouch for that, about everything that's been said here.
Q.Well just follow along with me. Have you told the Court everything that was said between you, Vanasse and Stewart in your house?
A. Right now?
Q. Yes, right now.
A.From what I could remember I'd have to say yes.
Q.Okay. And you didn't hear, well at your place Stewart wasn't in the washroom for one thing, he went directly to the dining room.
A.No, that's what was -- that's why it's been confusing me all this time like is try to remember. Like I said we were doing freebase. If it was in my washroom and I told the police, the OPP, the same thing and it's somewhere in one of their notes.
Q. What?
A.That I've told them I don't know if it was at my place or at Jamie's place but I know that's what I heard and that's what -- I went home and when I got home Vanasse was in my living room."
Do you remember those questions and answers?
A. Sort of, yes.
Q. So on that occasion having given differing versions, you explain that you're confused about where that happened.
A. That's correct.
Q. You're no longer confused about where the phone call was, right? You've testified you knew it was in your bathroom.
A. Yeah, one of the phone call was in my wash- room.
Q. Because still on that day later on, page 102 and 103, at the bottom of 102:
"Q.No, in fact you say that he then proceeded to your place and then there was this con- versation with Vanasse.
A. Correct.
Q.All right. And that was the only conversa- tion you had with Vanasse?
A. Yeah.
Q.And the only time you saw Stewart use the phone at your house was the call he apparently made to Rick Mallory.
A.Yeah, he called him on his pager I guess.
Q.Now we're still in the morning, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Before 12 noon?
A. Correct."
Do you remember those questions and answers?
A. Sort of.
Q. So you must've been mistaken about -- at that point about where the phone call happened, you were still thinking it might've happened at Jamie's.
A. Yeah.
Q. But you are now satisfied that the story you told us about the dogs barking and going out the back door is all true, and when you told the Court that you couldn't go out the back door, it was taped, it was barricaded and you went out the front and you spoke to Stewart that was all untrue.