Procedural Matters (Open Session)Page 1
1 Thursday, 25 November 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. I think I said yesterday
6 that we'd sit in the same courtroom, but you all found your way to the
7 right one. So even without the guidance of the Chamber, you get where
8 you have to be.
9 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
11 Momcilo Krajisnik.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to resume the examination-in-chief?
14 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, could I ask you to escort the
16 witness and his counsel into the courtroom.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 [Witness's counsel entered court]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Counsel.
20 Does counsel have earphones over there? Could we ask perhaps
21 counsel to sit at the other side, because there's an extra set of
22 earphones. I think if we would move Mr. Tomic to the other side.
23 There's another set nearby, I think, Madam Usher. I see one on the table
24 which gives a bit more room. Oh, that's just same distance.
25 Mr. Tomic, you have no microphone, but you're so nearby that if
Thursday, 25 November 2004Case No. IT-00-39-T
Witness: Momcilo Mandic (Resumed) (Open Session)Page 1
Examined by Mr. Tieger (Continued)
1 there would be any need to intervene, then just draw my attention to that
2 need.
3 Good morning, Mr. Mandic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, I'd like to remind you that you're still
6 bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your
7 testimony last Tuesday.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
9 WITNESS: MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Examined by Mr. Tieger [Continued]
12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mandic.
13 A. Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.
14 Q. Before we adjourned yesterday, if I recall correctly, we were
15 discussing that period of time during which you served as deputy minister
16 for the Bosnian Serb MUP in 1992. I'd like to move ahead this morning to
17 your work with the Ministry of Justice as minister of justice. And in
18 that connection, I'd like you to take a look at Prosecution's next
19 exhibit in order, which is 03025687.
20 THE REGISTRAR: P430.
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. Mr. Mandic, P430, which is now before you, is a document dated
23 the 1st of May, 1992, directed to the president of district assemblies
24 for the Banja Luka, Sarajevo, Sokolac, Trebinje, Bijeljina, and Doboj
25 regions. The subject is decisions in legislation and prosecution, and
1 that document bears your name as minister of justice and apparently was
2 signed for you. Let me give you a moment to look at that document, and
3 then I'd like to ask you some questions about it.
4 Do you need more time with that document, Mr. Mandic?
5 A. No, I don't. You may ask a question.
6 Q. Now, was the distribution of this document essentially an attempt
7 to begin the establishment of the organs of the Ministry of Justice?
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. And is it, therefore, addressed to the various organs under the
10 jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. So in the paragraph marked -- or identified as number 1, you seek
13 the commencement of establishing regular courts in various locales; is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And number 2 addresses public prosecutors' offices and identifies
17 the steps by which you seek the establishment of those offices and the
18 beginning of their function.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And similarly, for the remaining portions of the document, in
21 number 3, it focuses on the establishment of penal and correctional
22 institutions on the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina. Number 4, the misdemeanour courts, and number 5, the
24 channelling of fines for misdemeanours and implementing misdemeanour
25 procedures during war and the imminent threat of war.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And by this document, if I understand the first paragraph
3 correctly, you were instructing the presidents of district assemblies
4 that they were required to undertake the implementation of the steps
5 necessary to establish those organs in conditions of war and imminent
6 threat of war?
7 A. If you allow me to explain. Before the war, in the Socialist
8 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there were five district courts in
9 five districts. Those were Bihac, Banja Luka, Doboj, Sarajevo, Zenica.
10 Under the constitution of the Republic of Srpska, Serbian
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, five districts were established, at the head of which
12 there should have been five district or higher courts which under the law
13 on the courts should have detention units for these districts; that is,
14 Banja Luka, Sarajevo, Trebinje, Banja Luka, and Doboj. That means that
15 Banja Luka, Sarajevo, and Doboj were districts from the Socialist
16 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina that had had their detention units
17 attached to the district or high courts, as they were called at the time.
18 Q. And that identifies the areas in which those courts were intended
19 to be established under the new Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
20 and under the Ministry of Justice?
21 A. That means that in the area of the Republic of Srpska, in
22 addition to the old three districts and the old high or district courts,
23 which dealt with certain serious crimes as first instance and then second
24 instance in misdemeanours, Bijeljina and Trebinje were added to them.
25 During the war, remand prisons were formed for those who were under the
1 prosecution, or rather, correction -- under the investigation.
2 Q. And those also fell within the jurisdiction of the Ministry of
3 Justice; is that right?
4 A. Yes. The establishment of the courts, my assistant, Slobodan
5 Velasevic signed this document and he was my assistant for judiciary
6 issues.
7 Q. Mr. Mandic, let me ask you to next take a look at Prosecution's
8 next in order. That's ET 0345-5967.
9 THE REGISTRAR: P431.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Mr. Mandic, P431 is a document dated 20 May 1992, directed to the
12 Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Justice, attention to
13 the SJB under-secretary in the case of the Ministry of Internal Affairs
14 and attention to the minister in the case of the Ministry of Justice.
15 And it was sent by the chief of the SJB Novi Grad, Milenko Tepavcevic.
16 A. Tepavcevic was his name.
17 Q. Thank you. The subject of Mr. Tepavcevic's memo is information
18 regarding accommodation, food, hygiene, and other problems of persons
19 detained at KP Butmir.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was Butmir, KP Dom Butmir, one of the facilities that was
22 established during the course of beginning the Ministry of Justice in the
23 SerbianRepublic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
24 A. No. The KP Dom Butmir had been existing for 50 years in the
25 SocialistRepublic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was a semi-close type of
1 prison for lighter sentences and for misdemeanours.
2 Q. So when the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was
3 established and the Ministry of Justice was established, it was one of
4 those facilities that then came -- pre-established facilities that then
5 fell under its jurisdiction?
6 A. This facility at the time was under the jurisdiction of the
7 minister of the interior of Republika Srpska, and there was also the SJB
8 Ilidza there, and they addressed the under-secretary of the public
9 service, security service. The man who was in charge of the public
10 security in Republika Srpska, which could be described as third man from
11 the top in this particular area in Republika Srpska.
12 Q. And do you know who that was in particular at that time?
13 A. Yes.
14 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. I didn't understand the witness.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. Sorry. The interpreter didn't quite understand your response.
17 A. I cannot remember, but I think his name was Cedo Kljajic.
18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tepavcevic's memo is directed to the
19 under-secretary for the Ministry of Internal Affairs. It's also directed
20 to the minister of justice. For what reason was it directed to your
21 attention?
22 A. The ministry of justice in 1992 was supposed to take over this
23 facility and turn it into a remand prison of the Sarajevo district court
24 that was established in May 1992. Probably the reason that this was a
25 facility under the jurisdiction of the judiciary, it should have remained
1 after the takeover which took place in August 1992. And there's minutes
2 of the hand-over between MUP and the judiciary, and probably this is why
3 it was directed to the Ministry of Justice, describing the situation in
4 the facility at the time.
5 Q. In the SocialistRepublic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, under the
6 jurisdiction of which department or ministry did KP Dom Butmir fall?
7 A. The Ministry of Justice and Administration.
8 Q. And was the reason, at least according to you, that KP Dom Butmir
9 was temporarily under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Internal
10 Affairs because you were beginning the process of setting up the Ministry
11 of Justice and it was intended that this facility would fall within the
12 Ministry of Justice, just as it had done in the SerbianRepublic of
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
14 A. That is exactly what I said a while ago. We were in the process
15 of establishing institutions of the Ministry of Justice. That means
16 creating regular courts, high courts, lower courts, first-instance, and
17 second-instance courts, and supreme courts.
18 Under the law on judiciary, each district court was bound to have
19 a remand prison and a detention unit for investigation purposes. It was
20 agreed that this facility in 1992 should be taken over from the police
21 and converted into an investigating unit of the district court of
22 Sarajevo, one of the five district courts that existed in the Serbian
23 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was both under the constitution
24 and according to the law on judiciary.
25 Q. Was there a warden or equivalent at KP Dom Butmir at the time, on
1 May 20th, 1992?
2 A. I think that at that time there was no warden. I'm not quite
3 sure. However, full jurisdiction of the administration of the premises
4 and the guards around the prison was regulated by Milenko Tepavcevic, as
5 the head, the chief of police -- the chief of the police force under
6 whose control the premises was. And he was in charge of that particular
7 facility on the 25th of May, 1992. And you can see that from this
8 document and the date as it stands there.
9 Q. Now, item 3 of the memo of May 1st that you directed to the
10 presidents of district assemblies requires the immediate submission of
11 nominees for warden and deputy wardens of penal and correctional
12 institutions. Were wardens appointed for KP Dom Butmir, or was a warden
13 and a deputy warden appointed?
14 A. I can't remember exactly, but I don't think so, and here's why.
15 Because I was elected as minister of justice on the 19th of May, that is
16 to say, one day prior to this document. And I cannot believe that
17 wardens would have been appointed before my own appointment. That would
18 be contrary to the law. And all these documents, just as the one you
19 showed me a moment ago, were actually preparations for the creation of
20 the Serb system of justice in Republika Srpska. They were all for the
21 judiciary, et cetera. They were all preparatory to this, and I was the
22 deputy minister of MUP, and it was my job to look at the cadres, materiel
23 preparations, and so on, for a Serbian judiciary to be set up, a civilian
24 Serbian judiciary.
25 Q. Who was the first warden who you appointed for KP Dom Butmir?
1 A. I think it was Ratko Lalovic.
2 Q. And did you also appoint a deputy warden?
3 A. I don't remember. But it was Soniboj Skiljevic, if there was
4 one, but I can't remember exactly.
5 Q. Now, on the document in front of you right now, Prosecution's
6 431, at the top of the memo we see the handwritten name "Ratko L." Do
7 you know whether or not that refers to Ratko Lalovic?
8 A. Possibly, yes.
9 Q. Also, we can see at the top of the page, where the heading is,
10 "SJB Ilidza SJB Novi Grad, SM" and then in parentheses, Kula. Was KP Dom
11 Butmir also known as Kula?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, after you assumed the position of minister of justice, Mr.
14 Mandic, where was your office located?
15 A. For a time, my office was at Vrace, and when I was appointed
16 minister of justice, the offices of the Ministry of Justice were at the
17 Bistrica Hotel on MountJahorina.
18 Q. And how long did the offices or headquarters of the Ministry of
19 Justice remain at the hotel?
20 A. Up until I was replaced and left for Belgrade.
21 Q. And were there other offices of the Ministry of Justice, judicial
22 centres, for example?
23 A. The higher court was located in the Kula facilities, where the
24 police centre of Kula was located as well. The first-instance court was
25 there and the second-instance court was there, throughout the time I was
1 minister. I had an office, as minister, in one of the buildings in that
2 general area, when I communicated with Sarajevo and when I had business
3 to attend to in the city of Sarajevo itself.
4 Q. And just looking quickly at the content of Mr. Tepavcevic's memo
5 regarding accommodation, food, hygiene, and other problems at Kula, in
6 the first paragraph he identifies the number of persons who were detained
7 between 12 May 1992 and 20 May 1992 on, as he puts it, various grounds.
8 He then says that "preliminary operative interviews were conducted with
9 these persons and lists containing all necessary personal data were
10 delivered on time to the MUP."
11 What was the nature of the preliminary operative interviews that
12 were conducted of persons detained on various grounds at Kula?
13 A. I really can't say, because I wasn't informed about that. I
14 didn't conduct those interviews. I didn't work in the MUP. I just
15 prepared the road for the Serbian judiciary. This was conducted by the
16 competent authorities, that is to say, the head of the public security
17 service, down the line, down the chain of command, to Tepavcevic. So
18 this was something that the public and State Security Services did,
19 probably. And I say that on the basis of my experience. But as I say, I
20 wasn't kept abreast of things like that.
21 Q. And do you know the purpose of those preliminary operative
22 interviews?
23 A. I don't know. I wasn't informed about that, nor did I take part
24 in any of those interviews or receive reports about the interviews. And
25 it says here that all the facts were sent on time to the MUP headquarters
1 and the public security services and the top man there. I think it was
2 Cedo Kljajic at the time, but I'm not quite sure.
3 Q. And in the last paragraph, Mr. Tepavcevic emphasises the
4 inadequate conditions of accommodation, food, hygiene, and the state of
5 health of the detainees, and emphasises the urgency in resolving their
6 status.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Beyond this memo, did he communicate to you in any other way
9 about the inadequate conditions at Kula?
10 A. The care and attention of these people was under the MUP. That
11 was the police station, and providing exclusive security for these
12 people, their exchange and everything else. That was all conducted by
13 the MUP of Republika Srpska, led by this chief of police, Mr. Tepavcevic.
14 I think the commander's name was Vujicic.
15 Q. And finally, because -- well, let me ask you quickly: Did Mr.
16 Tepavcevic have a nickname?
17 A. I think it was Limun, or lemon.
18 Q. All right. Mr. Mandic, let me ask you to turn next to
19 Prosecution's next exhibit in order. That's --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, if you're done with this document, I
21 would have a few questions for the witness.
22 Mr. Mandic, where this document says that these persons were
23 taken into custody on various grounds, what did you understand what
24 variety would be there?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't answer that and
1 explain it, Your Honour, but I can just assume that it was from general
2 crimes to prisoners of war or due to the effects of war where people were
3 taken in for exchange later on. But that is my assumption.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To take people in for exchange, what would be
5 the legal basis for such custody?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't say, because I
7 wasn't the responsible individual at that period of time for things like
8 that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You also said that they were taken -- perhaps taken
10 into custody for crimes. Would crime investigations and prosecution fall
11 within the area of responsibility of the minister of justice or any other
12 ministry?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If it was from the area of general
14 crime, yes, it would come under the Ministry of Justice.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, you say that this was not -- you said
16 you were not the responsible individual. At the same time, you say that
17 they might have been taken into custody for general crimes. Why, then,
18 were you not responsible, at least for that part of the detentions?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this point in time, we were
20 creating the justice system, the judiciary, and I was appointed minister
21 of justice the day before, which did not exist up until then, and it was
22 my role to set up the courts and the judiciary institutions attendant to
23 the courts of the first instance, second instance, and third instance.
24 So nothing existed at all in the region, no courts, nothing like that. I
25 was a minister without a ministry, in fact.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me draw your attention to another part of
2 this document. It says 31 persons from Dobrinja I settlement were taken
3 in during the cleansing by TO Kasindol forces on the 14th of May, 1992."
4 What do you understand to be the cleansing by TO Kasindol forces?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it says quite clearly here
6 that the TO, which is the Territorial Defence, were the Crisis Staff,
7 local ones, of the local communes, who, in armed conflicts -- if you want