Military Police Complaints Commission
FYNES PUBLIC INTEREST HEARINGS
held pursuant to section 250.38(1) of the National Defence
Act, in the matter of file 2011004
LES AUDIENCES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIQUE SUR FYNES
tenues en vertu du paragraphe 250.38(1) de la Loi sur la
défense nationale pour le dossier 2011004
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
held at 270 Albert St., Ottawa, Ontario
on Thursday, April 12, 2012
jeudi, le 12 avril 2012
VOLUME 9
BEFORE:
Mr. Glenn Stannard Chairperson
Ms. Raymonde Cléroux Registrar
APPEARANCES:
Mr. Mark Freiman Commission counsel
Mr. Rob Fairchild
Ms Elizabeth Richards For Sgt Jon Bigelow, MWO Ross Tourout,
Ms Korinda McLaine LCol Gilles Sansterre, WO Blair Hart, PO 2 Eric McLaughlin,
Sgt David Mitchell, Sgt Matthew Alan Ritco, Maj Daniel Dandurand,
Sgt Scott Shannon, LCol Brian Frei, LCol (ret=d) William H. Garrick
WO (ret=d) Sean Der Bonneteau, CWO (ret=d) Barry Watson
Col (ret=d) Michel W. Drapeau For Mr. Shaun Fynes
Mr. Joshua Juneau and Mrs. Sheila Fynes
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(ii)
INDEX
PAGE
SWORN: EARL JARED 6
CrossExamination by Mr. Freiman 6
Crossexamination by Drapeau 163
Crossexamination by Richards 168
Re-Crossexamination by Drapeau 179
Further Crossexamination by Drapeau 185
Reexamination by Freiman 188
(iii)
LIST OF EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
P28 Document index book for Major Jared. 1
P29 List of documents identified by Major Jared. 1
196
Ottawa, Ontario
Upon resuming on Thursday, April 12, 2012
at 9:38 a.m.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Any preliminary issues this morning before we start?
MR. FAIRCHILD: Good morning, Mr. Chair. I just have a few exhibits to enter this morning. The first would be the document book index for our witness, Major Jared.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P28.
EXHIBIT NO. P28: Document book index for Major Jared.
MR. FAIRCHILD: I have also been provided with a list of documents that Major Jared has identified as relevant. I believe these are all actually in today's index, as well, but we will enter this list just for reference.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P29.
EXHIBIT NO. P29: List of documents identified by Major Jared.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure all the documents are in there? Are there documents that are not?
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MR. FAIRCHILD: I am just trying to verify that right now.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware, Ms. Richards, if there are?
MS. RICHARDS: I am advised they are all documents that were produced. I understand the witness was given access to documents, and this is just to assist him in his testimony. It is just an aidememoire.
THE CHAIRPERSON: That is fine.
MR. FREIMAN: Mr. Chairman, just one preliminary matter.
You will recall on Monday that we raised issues about redactions and about the questions of solicitorclient privilege, and I suggested that it come back today and in a more formal way put the matter before you with the potential request that the Minister be asked to intervene.
I did that mainly because let's not talk about that. There is no sense. It was my view that there was little prospect of a resolution in any other way.
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However, in the last couple of days, it has occurred to me that I may well be wrong, that perhaps there are creative ways that these issues can be dealt with without recourse to lengthy, expensive, and inconvenient forays into the Federal Court and without invoking the time of the Minister to deal with these issues.
I hope I was wrong in thinking it wasn't possible, and I hope I am right in thinking that it is possible. In any event, I have had some preliminary discussions with my friend Ms. Richards, and we have agreed that it is worthwhile, as it almost always is, to sit down, to try to take a pragmatic view of what the issues are, and to try to resolve them in a way that will allow these hearings to consider all the matters that are directly and fairly raised by the complaints before you, and to deal with those issues in a public manner, which is the entire purpose of a public hearing.
I am not going to ask you to do anything today except to be patient for a few days. We will try to find a good occasion to sit down and have a frank and pragmatic discussion, and perhaps we will be able to resolve this without any further muss or fuss.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. As I said Monday, I think I had encouraged counsel to continue to discuss, because the other potential resolutions may not achieve the results that you desire, possibly, and they are extremely lengthy, and we need to continue as best we can so that we can all achieve and get the necessary information before us. I will await further discussions.
Colonel Drapeau.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: A comment, Mr. Chair. I was not privy to these conversations that took place between Commission counsel and my friend Ms. Richards.
If we are to arrive at any conclusive, positive development, I would like to be included in the discussions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I will leave that to work out between the three of you.
Ms. Richards.
MS. RICHARDS: Certainly to the extent that we are able to, we will, but there will necessarily have to be some discussions directly between myself and Commission counsel so that we can have a more frank and open discussion of the issues.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: There are some issues that I understand have to be continued and finished in that way.
MR. FREIMAN: Certainly I think it is not only desirable but imperative that counsel for the complainants have a role in these discussions.
I think as a preliminary matter, the discussions will have to be between Commission counsel and the Department of Justice counsel, but we won't come back to you before we have also had these discussions with Colonel Drapeau and ensure that there is input everywhere.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: So we can truly say these are open discussions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Some of the preliminary discussions will need to be between the other two parties, but, as said, before anything comes to me, you need to be involved.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I have no quarrel with that, but I think from a public perception standpoint, that we are involved in it.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Some of these discussions will not be public issues they just can't be around some of the issues, whether they be solicitorclient privilege or whether they be other privileges.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: The only point I am saying, Mr. Chair, is that I am not looking to be presented with a fait accompli. If there are issues, I would like to have it between counsel.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I think we just heard that you will be involved before it comes to me, and if you are not, I am sure you will tell me.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I will.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR. FREIMAN: Mr. Chair, our first witness in fact, our only witness for today is Major Earl Jared.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Major. Welcome.
THE WITNESS: Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
SWORN: EARL JARED
CROSSEXAMINATION BY MR. FREIMAN:
Q. Good morning, Major Jared.
A. Good morning.
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Q. I wonder, sir, as a prelude to the rest of our discussions, whether you could fill us in on your military career background, postings, culminating with what you are doing today?
A. Absolutely. I enrolled in the Canadian Forces in June 1989. I completed my basic officer training in Chilliwack, British Columbia, and was then sent to Victoria to Royal Roads Military College, where I completed a military strategic studies degree with a concentration in history and political science.
In the summer months, I attended basic officer training in Gagetown, New Brunswick. I completed my basic armoured officer training in 1993, was posted to Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) in Calgary in the summer of 1993.
In 1994, I completed my first tour of service in Bosnia with UNPROFOR, returned to my regiment from that tour, was posted with my regiment to Edmonton in 1996.
In 1997, I returned to Bosnia with S4, at the time. I returned to Edmonton, was posted to 1 CMBG headquarters in Signal Squadron in the G3 cell.
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I again returned to my regiment after that posting, and in between in 2000 conducted my third tour of service in Bosnia with S4.
I returned to my regiment as a battle captain operations officer, served until 2003 as the operations officer, was posted to Ottawa in the director of NBC Defence in the 2003 after a French course, returned to my unit in the summer of 2006, where I was officer commanding Headquarters Squadron.
I returned to Ottawa in 2008 to the Canadian Forces Experimentation Centre in the Lessons Learned Directorate. I went to the Sudan as a military staff member with the United Nations in 2009, and I am currently posted on the advance training list with my duty station being in Hamburg, Germany, attending the German equivalent of the commanding staff course.
Q. Thank you, sir. Let's turn the clock back a little. Between approximately the spring of 2007 and the spring of 2008, what was your posting?
A. I was posted to CFB Edmonton, and I was acting in the capacity of officer commanding Headquarters Squadron, Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians).
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Q. Forgive me for my ignorance, but it is pretty wide. Can you help us with the difference between a commanding officer and an officer commanding?
A. Most units and I am speaking particularly of the armoured corps have one commanding officer who is the CO in charge of the unit, and underneath the CO are different officers commanding who are responsible for the subunits of the regiment or the unit.
Within our unit, there are subunits, what we call Sabre Squadrons, who are the tactical troops to operate the combat vehicles, and there is the support squadron, or Headquarters Squadron, who includes our maintainers, our cooks, transport, military police members, clerks, all those units used to support the other squadron.
The officer commandings I think there were approximately five at the time operate under the commanding officer.
Q. You were the officer commanding for Headquarters Squadron. You have given us good detail on the composition of Headquarters Squadron and its mission and mandate.
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We are going to start with the first occasion that Corporal Stuart Langridge came to your attention. As I understand it, that was surrounding his attempted suicide in the spring of 2007. Am I correct about that or was he on your radar before that?
A. That was the first occasion where I think he came onto my radar. When I looked back into my notes, I did make a minute on his file with respect to his, I think, recommendation for counselling with respect to prohibited drug use, and going back even further, there was an email sent with respect to his being removed from the primary leadership qualification course in Wainwright, from his leadership course.
Q. Just dealing with those sorts of matters, when those sorts of events occur a soldier is returned from a leadership course for health reasons or a soldier is noted to have failed a mandatory drug test is that something that you are expected to take notice of and action or is that simply something that goes into a file that you initial?
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A. I would put it into context with what the regiment was doing at the time, and at the time, in the summer of 2007, we had been sending armoured squadrons to Afghanistan. At that point in time, we started that in 2006.
The dates escape me as to which squadron it was by the summer, but we were in the middle of generating approximately every six months a new squadron to go.
In conjunction with those squadrons deploying, every member of the squadron received, to the best of my knowledge, a safetysensitive drug test, and there were a number of those drug tests that came back positive.
There were also, if I recall correctly, on this email a few other names of individuals who returned from the primary leadership qualification course.
Yes, it was something I took notice of, but in the context of what was going on at the time, it did not stand out in my memory or come onto my radar, as you indicated, until his initial suicide.
Q. I understand. Before we deal with the specifics of that event and your role in it, I wonder if you can tell me what role, if any, the officer commanding is expected to have with respect to suicide prevention policy.
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A. To the best of my recollection, the CO of the unit is responsible, through the appropriate Canadian Forces direction, for implementing the suicide prevention policy within the unit, and as officer commanding Headquarters Squadron at the time, I believe the individual identified on the secondary duties list was in my squadron.