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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N H-762186
THE HONOURABLE M. WHITE AO, Commissioner
MR M. GOODA, Commissioner
IN THE MATTER OF A ROYAL COMMISSION INTO
THE CHILD PROTECTION AND YOUTH DETENTION
SYSTEMS OF THE NORTHERN TERRITORY
DARWIN
10.21 AM, TUESDAY, 28 MARCH 2017
Continued from 27.3.17
DAY 23
MR P.J. CALLAGHAN SC appears with MR P. MORRISSEY SC, MR T. McAVOY SC, MR B. DIGHTON, MS V. BOSNJAK, MR T. GOODWIN and MS S. McGEE as Counsel Assisting
MS S. BROWNHILL appears with MR G. O’MAHONEY and MR C. JACOBI for the Northern Territory of Australia
MR P. O’BRIEN appears with MS C. GOODHAND for Dylan Voller
MR P. BOULTON appears with DR P. DWYER for North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency
MS F. GRAHAM appears for the Central Australian Aboriginal Legal Aid Service
MR J.B. LAWRENCE SC appears for AD
MS T. LEE appears for AA, AB and AC
MR S. O’CONNELL appears for AN
MS S. PARSONS appears for Ian Johns
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CLOSED SESSION ENSUED
[REDACTED INFORMATION]
PUBLIC SESSION RESUMED
RESUMED [10.21 am]
<JAMES SIZELAND, ON FORMER AFFIRMATION [10.21 am]
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LEE
COMMISSIONER WHITE: Ms Lee.
MS LEE: Commissioners, my name is Lee. I represent the young people AA, AB and AC.
COMMISSIONER WHITE: Yes. Thank you, Ms Lee.
MS LEE: Mr Sizeland, we’ve heard that you were the deputy general manager of the Don Dale Youth Detention Centre?Yes, that’s correct.
Your role was to support the general manager?That’s correct.
Support him in terms of leadership?Yes.
Facilitate appropriate recruitment of staff?Yes.
Manage support staff and ensure compliance with training?Yes, amongst – amongst probably a number of other things, that’s correct, yes.
Now, you also gave some evidence yesterday about your view of the BMU?That’s correct, yes.
Didn’t like it, not an appropriate place, period?Yeah, I said that, yes.
You meant by that not an appropriate place to house detainees?That’s correct, yes.
In particular young people?In particular anyone, but yes.
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And that was because of the inappropriate conditions there?I just think it was very poor infrastructure. Didn’t meet any of the needs that – that comes back to a wider issue of the structure of the centre.
Didn’t meet their needs, as in their basic human needs?Well, it didn’t meet a lot of the needs in relation to, you know, there was no separate exercise facilities. There was no – obviously, as was covered yesterday, there’s no appropriate plumbing to the cells, apart from a toilet. The cells themselves I considered to be insecure and unsafe. There are a number of hanging points in the BMU. Didn’t
Sorry?I can keep going all day, but I won’t.
As you’ve said, we did hear some of this evidence yesterday?Yes.
But I would just like to pick up on a point that you made?Sure.
There were hanging points everywhere?All through the centre, yes.
In particular, you’re talking about hanging points being in the BMU?There were hanging points in the BMU, yes.
Because of that it was necessary for those monitoring that area to maintain close visual surveillance of the young people who were in that area?Yes, they were supposed to.
That was supposed to happen by way of CCTV as well as a physical presence from time to time?Yes, that’s correct.
In your view and experience, as the deputy general manager, a physical check of a detainee, how long would that take?It could depend. It could be a short visual check. It could stop and have a conversation and also depend on the circumstances of the check, if there was a reason to actually go in there and have a discussion or a conversation. A check can last quite some time sometimes, or sometimes if it’s just a walk in and a check just to have a visual look at someone, it could take a few seconds.
COMMISSIONER WHITE: Can I ask you this while you’re on to this topic in case I forget at the end of your cross-examination, Ms Lee. The visual inspection, could that occur without opening the cell door adequately, do you think? Could you get a good view of the whole of the cell from – there’s quite a small visual panel, isn’t there?It’s quite small, yeah. There is. Look, ideally you don’t open the door. You know, in an appropriate environment there would be clear viewing windows to look through. The BMU, as you’ve seen, has a lot of mesh, but generally – generally, you could get a reasonable view, in my opinion. You could see without having to open the door.
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You could see the side where the door was of the cell, could you?You could see inside the door, yes.
MS LEE: In order to see inside, though, you need to approach the cell?Yes.
Now, we’ve heard that you made an argument to remove the detainees, that is, the detainees that I represent as well as others who were kept in the BMU between the period of 4 August to 21 August 2014?That’s correct, yes.
And the reason you made that argument was because of those other issues that you’ve identified?Sorry. Can you clarify those issues? The
The issues that you said that you spoke about yesterday and you’ve spoken about a little this morning?Okay.
No access to drinking water, no natural light, no air flow?Yeah. That plus broader infrastructure issues in the Don Dale area was also the reason I made that recommendation.
That recommendation didn’t go anywhere?No, it was denied. Well, it did go to the – to executive level office, but was denied, yes.
I would like to just focus on your roleSure.
Now, you didn’t have the authority to move the boys out of that area, but you did have the authority to direct their day-to-day activities?Well, I would direct, but I did rely on my shift supervisors very heavily to undertake that position.
And a way in which you would direct was through the implementation of behaviour management regimes?That’s correct, yes.
If I could ask for tender bundle tab 184 to please be put on the screen. Sir, this is a document that you were shown yesterday. It’s a management regime plan?Mmm.
You can take it from me that this is prepared in respect of young person AB. But, in any event, that doesn’t matter, does it, because this management plan was identical for AA, AB and AC?Yes, that’s correct.
At the bottom of page 1:
Accommodation. Detainee child is to be accommodated in a single room accommodation.
That did not occur for AB or AC, did it?It wasn’t considered to be a dormitory style accommodation for those boys, but that’s right, they were actually doubled up in a two-up cell, yes.
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So is it your evidence that this behavioural management regime was prepared with a view to the boys being in a dormitory stile accommodation?No, it wasn’t. This was prepared for them to be in a single room accommodation or what you considered to be a one-out cell. It wasn’t
You signed this – I apologise for interrupting, sir?Sorry. It wasn’t actually uncommon in some of the bedroom situations where two of the detainees were good friends. We’ve had sisters before. They would share a room. So that was probably the case. In this area here we had those two particular boys in the same room together, but that’s correct, it says single room, and they were actually doubled up in there.
There’s nothing in respect of this management regime then that speaks specifically about how AB should be managed whilst at the BMU?Sorry. I don’t – I don’t follow.
Well, you’ve just indicated in your evidence – and correct me if I’m wrong – that that dot point there under accommodation, that’s not relevant because he was in the BMU?It is actually relevant because he wasn’t in the BMU. That’s – yes. I’m sorry. I don’t necessarily agree with you there.
So it’s relevant, but it wasn’t followed?Well, this is saying single room accommodation. He was in a single room accommodation. I think it was just the fact that they were doubled up in the cell.
So there were two people in a cell that was, effectively, built for one?That’s correct, yes.
Now, sir, it was open to you – and you’ve signed this document on the last page?That’s correct.
You’ve signed it on 21 August?Mmm.
It’s identical to a document you signed on 13 August?Correct.
It’s open to you in either of those documents or by some other directive order to shift supervisors, to Youth Justice Officers, to vary the time that those young men spent in the cells in the BMU?Yes, it was, but it was also a very difficult situation with the wider infrastructure of the centre to actually do that.
Well, let’s talk about that very difficult situation with the wider infrastructure of the centre. You’ve referring to the escape on 2 August?Actually, no. I’m talking about the lack of exercise yards in the centre where – where we had the – we may have female or other detainees, the young and vulnerable, using that exercise yard during the day which made it very limited times for these high risk boys to come out and use it. That was one of the issues, I think, I tried to touch on earlier, that there was no specific exercise area for those particular boys to use. I mean
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That behaviour management plan, though, if we can turn to page 3 under the heading Recreation it says that:
The detainee will be authorised to mix freely with two other detainees whilst out of his accommodation unit.
Yes. That was the last one that I put in prior to the incident, obviously, on 21 August where I had extended, I guess, in an attempt to extend the recreation time out of the cell to other detainees. So with one to other detainees whilst out of the accommodation unit, so one of the issues with the escape and, obviously, what we were trying to avoid was that these particular detainees acted as a group in their actions of escaping the centre, i.e., that – i.e., that individually or in a small number they weren’t considered to be a threat or a risk, but on the night of the escape when they acted as a group and held staff at bay quite easily they were able to escape, and, obviously, with keeping their numbers to a low number at any one time it would reduce the risk of another event. That was the reason why it was a limited number at any one time.
You are now talking about the escape of ..... August?That’s the reason why there’s low numbers.
Well, lets’ ask some questions about thatOkay.
You’ve indicated that that group acted as a group?Yes, I did.
Were you there when that escape occurred?I responded to it.
So what does that mean? My question was were you there when that escape occurred?I was not physically there when the escape occurred.
So how did you respond to it?As the on-call manager.
You would have reviewed IOMS with respect to that incident?No. I attended immediately.
How did you inform yourself as to what had occurred prior to your attendance?I watched the CCTV footage of the entire event and spoke to the staff on the floor.
So then you would confirm that that escape occurred when the boys were in medium security?They were in low security, and they came from the medium security area from the basketball court where they planned it.
They were directed over a PA system to move from one area of the detention centre to another area, to come into lockdown from the basketball court to M Block?Well, they were actually supervised by staff and taken down to the low security area.
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When you say supervised, there was no kind of restraints on them at all?At that particular point in time they were finishing their recreation time playing basketball. There were no restraints on the boys, no.
No manual, no mechanical?They were low security prisoners. There was no restraints.
Instead of returning to their accommodation, one boy ran off towards the oval. Other boys then followed?I believe it was a number of boys ran off towards the oval.
Then they went to the gym room, obtained gym equipment, were moving around the perimeter fence?Firstly, they tried to smash out of the lock behind the gym.
If I can ?With force.
MR O’MAHONEY: If he could be allowed to answer the question.
MS LEE: I don’t intend and my intention is not to prevent the witness from answering the question, but the opening line suggested to me that the answer was to be nonresponsive, but I will allow him to continueSorry. The first – my understanding of what I observed and in speaking to the staff is the first thing that these boys did was try and smash a lock out with the weightlifting equipment that was on a gate that was directly behind the gym. They could not break out at that particular point.