Interviewer: Ambrose Webster

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Interviewer: Ambrose Webster

Interviewee: Jessie Williams

Date:March 7, 2001

A.W.:My name is Ambrose Webster I’m with DeltaStateUniversity and we’re doing an oral history of the Civil Rights Movement and the sixties, what happened in the sixties. If you will, would you state your name for us please?

J.W.:Okay, my name is Jessie Bernice Franklin Williams.

A.W.:And when were you born and where were you born?

J.W.:Uh, on January 31, 1944 in Greenville,Mississippi.

A.W.:Greenville, ’44.

J.W.:Yes, yes ’44, war baby, yes.

A.W.:Well what I want you to do is I want you to help come up with some questionsfor the real interview, questions that you can express to people who are going to reading and hearing this interview in the future of what happened… paint us a picture and help us come up with questions that I can ask at the next interview. Paint a picture for the people in the future. Tell us a little bit, if you would, about your childhood and growing up.

J.W.:I grew up in Greenville, MS in the 40’s and the 50’s and we know that this is a period of the segregated period. I grew up then, you could call it, in the center of a heart of the city. About 4 blocks south of Washington Avenue, which was then main street of that particular town. My parents were average at that time. My father learned to lay bricks and my mother was a housewife, there were ten of us. Five girls and five boys. I attended the elementary school, the name was the LucyL.WebbSchool, named for one of the older persons there, after I graduated from elementary school, we had elementary school then, I went to ColemanHigh School, which was the only black school in the city at that particular time.

A.W.:And what year did you graduate from that school?

J.W.:1962. High school? 1962.

A.W.:’62, so you were pretty much in the…

J.W.:’60’s, yes, I was in the bulk of it.

A.W.:Did you go to college right after high school?

J.W.:Yes, the only thing I knew that was I had to go to college. My father drilled in us that after high school your next step must be college. So I went to college right after I graduated high school. I went to Mississippi Valley State University, I could have gone to Tougaloo or Pine Bluff, but I went to Valley and was home sick for two weeks, so I really wasn’t used to going out so that’s where I was, okay.

A.W.:And you graduated from Valley, when?

J.W.:’66, actually, ‘65. Because I finished in three years rather than four.

A.W.:And your major was…

J.W.:My major was social studies, history.

A.W.:Education?

J.W.:Yes, education, history studies-social studies. Let’s back up a little bit, I was saying that…well we’re just getting generalized questions.

A.W.:Well, I do want to know this: I’ve seen movies like Mississippi Burning and movies like that, the Long Walk Home. They portray an atmosphere between the two sides of the community, the white side and black side of the community. Was it really that much tension or how was it back in the fifties when you were growing up?

J.W.:Okay, now when I grew up, I wasn’t really concerned about the other side because in Greenville we had a very powerful school, they taught well, there were a lot of people who were going to college, we had a couple of my classmates after me that were to go on into professional areas like opera, like Walter Turnbooth who is coming to Delta State now is my classmate. Yes, we have gotten aGeorge Scott who played professional baseball out of my class, the Richardson who played professional ball. So therefore, wewere a superior school in all of our avenues. So we weren’t really concerned about what was going on at the other school. Now I would see them passing by on the busses but that was irrelevant to me because they were going to their school and we went to ours. Even though we walked to school, oh I walked about 3 or 4 miles every morning, and back in the afternoon; but, uh, it really didn’t bother us because, you know, that’s what we were used to at that particular time.

A.W.:The movie Separate But Equal, they were talking about no bussing…

J.W.:My class is studying that now; we are getting on Civil Rights today. I’m introducing it with Separate But Equal.

A.W.:Oh, that’s an excellent movie and did you see the first time when blacks were bussed instead of having to walk to school? Did you see that happen?

J.W.:Well, I guess I did. But it was long after I came out of high school that they really started to bus them. I guess children who lived like in the rural area were bussed but, uh, everybody in Greenville really just walked to school becausesome kids walked way from, uh, we call it the levee. Do you know where the levee is? They walked from there all the way to Highway 61, yeah 61 where Coleman High is. So, uh, people were walking when I was going to school. Later on they would begin to bus them. But, I do remember the bussing issues and the situations during that particular time.

A.W.:In Greenville, then they had separate water fountains and separate bathrooms and all of that…

J.W.:Yes, when I was young we had separate water…all of our public facilities were separate, uh, even when we went to the movies, blacks to sit at the top unless we went to the one that was integrated, and uh, whites sit at the bottom of the movies or whatever you had.

A.W.:But you…when you got your degree from Valley where did you work after that?

J.W.:Well, uh, the first year I got out I worked at McEvan’s it was the all black school in Shaw.

A.W.:That was in what ’66 or something?

J.W.:’67, ’66 or ’67.

A.W.:Okay, how long did you stay there?

J.W.:Yes, for a year. Okay, and after I was there for a year it started to rumor that all the schools had to be integrated because this was a mandate, you know. Uh, so I didn’t know, I think there were about three of us who probably were in the running, and finally I was chosen to come over and integrate the schools in the Delta. I think I was one in the first high schools to integrate in the Delta period because I got two awards for that.

A.W.:What was it like? Was it your choice or were you volunteering?

J.W.:Oh no, no, no, they were asking, uh, no he just asked me would I come. Do I think that I could handle the situation, that was the, uh, questions and things that were asked. Uh, I felt, I said yes because if I can teach on I guess I can teach them all. So that was, uh, the situation at that time.

A.W.:Did you meet opposition when you first came in?

J.W.:Well, uh, I guess because the population here is predominantly Italian, who actually gotten in 12 years prior to me through that same process. It was hostile but not as hostile as it probably would have been if it had been predominantly Anglo. So, uh, that was that situation. So when I came in, uh, oh, they were staring and uh, a lot of teachers stared, too. But I guess I was looking too becauseit was new to me too and I guess we were just looking at each other. And, uh, we had… I had classes that I had to teach, I was assigned some classes, and the Superintendent told me he would pay me extra to come and I wouldn’t have any other obligations except to teach the four classes while all the pressure was on. So, I taught my classes and I was not assigned any extracurricular duties or anything like that, at that time.

A.W.:I have an idea if you don’t mind sharing this, I was just thinking being a teacher myself, when I came to school…when you came to this school, do you have a good story or a bad story of a teacher? It may have been a teacher that befriended you or a teacher that was a real jerk and didn’t treat you right…do you have a good story and a bad story, you don’t necessarily have to call names but I’m just wondering?

J.W.:Yeah, um-hmm, I don’t think anyone treated me bad but, uh we were distant. There was a teacher, her name was Martha Ferretti and Rhodes, her last name was Rhodes, I can’t remember her first name, but these two were very friendly, very influential in helping me meet people and learning what I had to learn about the building and the facilities and things of that nature. They were very instrumental in being helpful to me when I came over.

A.W.:Did they receive some flack from the other teachers by befriending you?

J.W.:Now, if so, I didn’t catch it, okay. There were some who were distant and you know looked and uh, I guess, uh, I don’t know, and I say again because it’s a predominantly Italian area I think the group was more responsive to the way that things were. There were some, I’m going to call them, uh, a group of English descendants that were a little negative but I think with my personality and whatever like this I ignored it and finally everybody had to just fall in line. I should say it like that. Um, I had a problem with one of the principles and his son, uh, I forgot what they called his name…he was in about the eleventh grade I believe, I guess he thought because his dad was the principal I would just have to follow suit, but anyway there was a question and I told him that his answer was wrong and he said that the answer was right, so, uh, I wasn’t going to argue with him so we went to the, uh, his father and I told he could go to the superintendent and when we got there my answer was right. So, I told them one thing, I know what I’m talking about when I’m talking about my lesson, so, uh, after that I didn’t have any other issues about my strategies or my teaching or anything of that nature.

A.W.:What about the community, uh, as far as the black community were you revered as a here for crossing the line or did you…

J.W.:I think that some people were happy for me, but on the other hand I think that some people went negative toward me. I think it even carries over to now, you know. Some of the things they might have said like, uh, I tell you what I asked a prominent black person who was older because I was just getting out of school: I wonder should I go, I wonder, you know, what steps should I take. And they told me “if I were you, I would just quit” and I wouldn’t do it, and all these type things and, uh, I didn’t think that was so positive for an older person to give me that kind of advice. So, uh, I kind of lost respect for that person because about 4 years later then it was mandated that every school would be integrated. So when that happened a lot of people lost…

A.W.:When did that happen?

J.W.:Uh, about what? About ’72 or ’71, somewhere along in that area. What happened is a lot of people lost jobs at that time because of the integration situation. So, uh, I always felt that some people felt proud for me but others did not. And because of that, uh, I think of the consequences of situations at that time. In the community, uh, I think I was really supported by the black community here at Shaw. I think a lot of people supported me. I know a lot of my students supported me

A.W:Former students or new students?

J.W.:…former students, I think now too, past and present students, uh, because we had an incident at one time, and those students, those were strong students too, I think maybe like 1970…uh, there was an incident because there was homecoming between the two schools. The first whole class that came over here wanted to go back to the black school to be in the homecoming celebration. Well the Principal and the Superintendent said no, that they could not go. So, what I said was now, you probably have the right to go because you don’t participate in this one over here. It was a whole, I think it was a ninth grade class, I said if I should say the words, “I wouldn’t take no wooden nickels.” I said that means everybody needs to get up and walk out. So, I mean uh, as things progressed that day, uh, about one something, the parade was coming downtown and I said, “I wouldn’t take no wooden nickels,” every child got up and walked out of that school. They never told them from that day to this day that Mrs. Williams said it. So, in order to stop the situation, the Superintendent called schools and he allowed the festivities for the homecoming to come down this street right here, what’s this street? Dean Boulevard so they could stand out and look at the parade. So, uh it was organized…

A.W.:But the integrated students were not allowed to participate in the homecoming…

J.W.:They could have but they didn’t feel comfortable, so they didn’t really participate in a lot of the, uh, activities in the beginning when the first classes came, uh, they were in a minority so they didn’t really feel comfortable with it, so they talked about it and, uh, but they gradually, as the population increased, became partakers of the activities, but at first they did not.

A.W.:How were the relations between the students that were here and the integrated students? Were there fights or anything?

J.W.:No there weren’t fights because, again, because of the Italian population who had gone through a lot of these same struggles, uh, it was far better that it would have been otherwise. Now had it not been for that situation…but that is a situation that has held things to a minimum in this area. There were not a lot fights between students, let me put it like this: they didn’t participate with one another in the beginning, but as time passed they started to deal with each other. One little boy, there was a fight between a white boy and a black boy, I’m not going to call their names, but anyway the little black boy kept bothering the little white boy, he thought he was just going to push him over, but he gave him the fight of his life. I think after that time it was determined that black just can’t whip any white and white just can’t whip and black. I think that solved that problem that, uh, a man is a man, so that sort of settled that problem. Uh, we had a problem too about, not a problem, but the first time I assigned black history books to the all white classes. The kids took it home and they had this big whatever and they kept it at home, they never said a word to me. They went to the church and, uh, discussing it at the meeting downtown they were discussing it. That’s how I know a child is a child, so when the kids came back to school they said Mrs. Williams guess what? They were talking about you at church Sunday. And I said what? They were discussing you at church Sunday. But the consequences were that if I assigned the black books, then the students had to read the black books, so that settled that problem. I didn’t have to worry about that anymore. I think once it was set that you had to do your work, I think that eliminated who has to do what and things of that nature.

A.W.:Well, I’m sure with previous interviews, they asked you and bombarded you with questions about the school and about your job here and all. Have they asked you , and, I would like to know, about the general atmosphere and environment of Shaw and Greenville between blacks and whites? One of the fears, because I have been reading like before the Mayflower and different people who crossed the racial lines and those books talked about the whites back in those days were afraid that the two races finally got together in marriage and all of that, it wasn’t long ago they started down the masagination laws, uh, did you see any of this happen and were there…because of this?

J.W.:Well, that is a fact, I think maybe why the problem was, I don’t think enter marriages. I think they thought that black boys would marry white girls, I think that was the whole situation because they had been…whites had been having fears babies by blacks for a long time, so that started that, but that was hidden back. The issue was I don’t want my white daughter to marry your black son, and I think that’s still, you know, the situation, but uh, well let’s go back way in history. Now long ago, there was no law which kept individuals from marrying each other and finally they will pass this law that says if you have 1/8 of black blood in you, you cannot cross the line. So, uh, I think our country created this situation for itself, uh, maybe, now I think we are learning that you may not want them to get together, you know, in high school. But once you get out of high school you got to go to college you are going to meet black/white and in the job sector you are going to meet black/white, so it’s inevitable association brings on assimilation, so if you deal with people all the time maybe this person, but what happens is because you become close then you can cross the line be it black or white and think that’s the situation.

A.W.:Well the next question I’m going to ask you is when did you see the movement towards, now even to this day, when they are in junior high school, they yank them out of junior high school and put them in academies, when did you see that start to take place?