ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION
GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION
Level 19, 55 Market Street, Sydney, NSW 2000
On Tuesday, 28 April 2015 at 10.00am
Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC
Counsel Assisting: Mr Jeremy Stoljar SC
Mr Richard Scruby
Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors
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1 <RUSSELL JAMES WILSON, on former oath: [10.00am]
2
3 <EXAMINATION BY MR TAYLOR:
4
5 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Taylor.
6
7 MR TAYLOR: Thank you, Commissioner.
8
9 Q. Mr Wilson, before today, have you read witness
10 statements of any other witness who has appeared or will
11 appear in these proceedings?
12 A. I didn't get Mr Riordan's statement till very late.
13 I don't think it was put in until 8 o'clock, but my
14 solicitor gave me Mr Riordan's statement and I just breezed
15 through it where my name was mentioned.
16
17 Q. Do you mind just moving the microphone?
18 A. Yes. I'm sorry, I have a bit of asthma too.
19
20 Q. Just looking at the screen so I can see what you have
21 said, you had read Mr Riordan's statement?
22 A. Only to where it talks about me and I find it not
23 accurate.
24
25 Q. Are there any other witness statements you have read
26 other than Mr Riordan's?
27 A. I had a quick look at Mr - there was Betts that talks
28 about a vendetta, my name was mentioned, and I find that
29 rather strange, when I'm only after the truth, calling it
30 a vendetta, so --
31
32 Q. Any other witness statements you have read?
33 A. Not really, no. As far as --
34
35 Q. I don't understand the answer "Not really".
36 A. Well, I've had a glimpse at some but I haven't
37 thoroughly looked through them all. I'm more interested in
38 my statement, to be honest with you.
39
40 Q. Were you looking at them on a screen or in a hard copy
41 form?
42 A. No, I've got hard copies.
43
44 Q. I see. Do you have a hard copy of every statement?
45 A. I have a hard copy of Mr Riordan's, Mr Currey's,
46 Mr Hanger's, Mr Woods', Mr Oakes', Mr Koppie's,
47 Mr Whyburn - no, that's just the - no, that is full extent
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1 I think of my witness statements.
2
3 Q. After the name Currey there is something that the
4 transcript has written as Hanger's, but that is not what
5 you said. Can you spell the name after Currey?
6 A. Mr Hanger - H-A-N-G-E-R, John.
7
8 Q. And after Mr Woods, I think currently the transcript
9 records Mr Oakes, O-A-K-S. What is the right spelling of
10 that name?
11 A. O-A-K-E-S.
12
13 Q. The next one is "Mr Copy", spelt C-O-P-Y. What is the
14 correct spelling of that name?
15 A. It is not in that order, but K-O-P-P-I-E.
16
17 Q. What were the circumstances in which you obtained
18 those hard copies?
19 A. I was shown it from my solicitor.
20
21 Q. Can you recall when you received them?
22 A. Sunday, I think. Sunday.
23
24 Q. I think this is clear to those of us in the room, but
25 for the transcript purposes, you have all of those that you
26 mentioned with you in the witness box, do you?
27 A. I do.
28
29 Q. Are there any that you haven't mentioned that you also
30 have in the witness box?
31 A. Not that I'm aware of.
32
33 Q. Are you now going through the process of
34 double-checking?
35 A. I'm going through the process of looking further back
36 into this documentation I have to see if there's any in
37 there that I haven't - that I've missed. I have; I have
38 missed Mr Buttigieg.
39
40 Q. Just spell that name?
41 A. B-U-T-T-I-G-I-E-G. Mary Stylli, S-T-Y-L-L-I.
42 John Magann, M-A-G-A-N-N. I think that's the full extent
43 of them. Ms McKinley.
44
45 Q. How do you spell that?
46 A. M-C-K-I-N-L-E-Y. And Paul McManus, M-C-M-A-N-U-S.
47
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1 MR TAYLOR: Commissioner, can I note this for the record
2 at this point. Counsel assisting requested that all
3 witnesses who might be giving evidence today, or are
4 scheduled to give evidence today, not be in the courtroom
5 at this point and there's no difficulty, of course, with
6 that. They are not in the courtroom. Could I ask for
7 access to the documents that Mr Wilson has just been
8 leafing through?
9
10 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you object to that, Mr Nagle?
11
12 MR NAGLE: In relation to the statements which have been
13 identified, no, Commissioner, but in relation to any other
14 documents which have not been identified, I'm not in
15 a position to say one way or the other really because
16 I don't know what my witness has.
17
18 MR TAYLOR: Could I propose a different course, if it
19 please, Commissioner; that is, that this witness provide
20 the documents he has in the witness box to Mr Nagle and
21 that Mr Nagle can, at an appropriate time, identify whether
22 there are any other statements beyond those that this
23 witness has listed which are also in that bundle, so that
24 I don't have to see them, but we think it is important that
25 we understand what witness statements this witness has had
26 access to prior to giving evidence.
27
28 THE COMMISSIONER: We seem to be engaged in rather an
29 elaborate set of manoeuvres. You want, at a later time,
30 Mr Nagle to go through the bundle that the witness has and
31 separate them into (a) the witness statements the witness
32 has mentioned, (b) the possible other witness statements
33 that he hasn't mentioned, and (c) anything else?
34
35 MR TAYLOR: At this stage, I am only inquiring about the
36 witness statements, so I am not looking at (c).
37
38 THE COMMISSIONER: You want this done now?
39
40 MR TAYLOR: I would like it done, unless Mr Nagle is in
41 a position to indicate what witness statements, if any,
42 beyond those that have been identified, to his instructor's
43 knowledge have been provided to this witness, then we can
44 move on.
45
46 THE COMMISSIONER: I am starting to experience a sense of
47 unreality, Mr Stoljar. Do you have any solution to this
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1 chain of events?
2
3 MR STOLJAR: I make the observation that my friend in
4 a Commission of this kind doesn't have power to make
5 a formal call for documents. He seems to be just exploring
6 with the witness what the witness has seen. The witness
7 seems to be readily conceding that he has seen a number of
8 witness statements, perhaps all the witness statements that
9 have been put on by the ETU's representatives. If that be
10 the case then that fact has been established and we can
11 move on, as it were.
12
13 THE COMMISSIONER: Is that all you want to find out,
14 namely, what statements have --
15
16 MR TAYLOR: If it please, it is, Commissioner, yes.
17
18 THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps it is simplest, Mr Nagle, if
19 you just approach the witness. Can you remember the names
20 mentioned?
21
22 MR NAGLE: Commissioner, we have a list. What I might ask
23 is this, Commissioner, rather than me going through
24 whatever material my client has there, I wonder if he might
25 just separate out the statements from the other material.
26 Mr Taylor can have access to those statements if that is
27 what he wants. Unless I am directed to, I have no
28 intention of fossicking through my client's documents to,
29 (1), potentially be a witness, if there's other things that
30 I find, and (2), to see documents that I'm not sure my
31 client necessarily wants me to see. It is not a hard
32 process for Mr Wilson to just separate the statements from
33 the other material and put it in two bundles, but I prefer
34 not to have to do that myself.
35
36 MR DOCKING: Commissioner, could I make it clear. Might
37 I ask through counsel assisting, or the Commission, or
38 both, access to the copy only of Commissioner Riordan's
39 statement that has been referred to.
40
41 THE COMMISSIONER: You want that access now?
42
43 MR DOCKING: Yes.
44
45 THE COMMISSIONER: That seems a pretty simple manoeuvre.
46 Yes, Mr Stoljar?
47
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1 MR STOLJAR: It is up to Mr Nagle really, but there may be
2 recordings made that he may wish to claim privilege over,
3 but I will leave that with Mr Nagle.
4
5 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Wilson, do you you have
6 Mr Riordan's statement in front of you?
7 A. I do.
8
9 Q. Have you written anything on it or highlighted
10 anything?
11 A. I just put some crosses against some statements that
12 I don't think are - well, I know one of them is not -
13 didn't happen at all, but --
14
15 THE COMMISSIONER: I think we might leave your --
16
17 THE WITNESS: Sorry, I will just have a quick look at
18 this.
19
20 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Docking, I think we might leave your
21 application, if that is what it is, in abeyance for the
22 time being. Now, Mr Wilson --
23
24 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Commissioner, I marked 36 and 37
25 which talks about me; that's all I've marked in this
26 document.
27
28 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Could you just go through what you
29 have with you and take out all those witness statements you
30 mentioned and, for that matter, any others that you find
31 and just put them in a pile?
32 A. Certainly, no problem.
33
34 Q. And all the other documents you can keep separately
35 from that pile.
36 A. Thank you. Sorry for the delay but they have a
37 tendency to get mixed up. Did I mention Mr Butler's
38 statement? I have Mr Butler's one here too. I think
39 that's it, Mr Commissioner.
40
41 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Nagle?
42
43 MR NAGLE: Before statements are provided to my learned
44 friend, I wonder if I might have first access to see if
45 there is anything in there that we might object to?
46
47 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Please show them to Mr Nagle.
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1
2 MR NAGLE: Thank you.
3
4 MR TAYLOR: For my part, I have no difficulty with
5 continuing the examination whilst my friend is doing that,
6 but I'm also content if his preference is that I wait if he
7 needs --
8
9 MR NAGLE: I can attempt to multi-task.
10
11 MR TAYLOR: With the leave of the Commission, I will then
12 proceed.
13
14 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
15
16 MR TAYLOR: Q. Mr Wilson, you did not mention, amongst
17 others, if I noted it correctly, a statement of
18 Mr Sinclair. Is that a statement that you had seen prior
19 to giving evidence?
20 A. No. I haven't seen Mr Sinclair's statement.
21
22 Q. Just come back towards the microphone.
23 A. Sorry, I haven't seen Mr Sinclair's statement.
24
25 Q. Have you spoken to Mr Sinclair about the evidence that
26 you and he are going to be giving in these proceedings?
27 A. No. I made a point of not getting involved in that
28 scenario.
29
30 Q. Have you had any discussions with Mr Sinclair
31 yesterday afternoon, or overnight, about the proceedings
32 generally?
33 A. No.
34
35 Q. Mr Wilson, do you accept that you are someone who is
36 disgruntled and unhappy with Mr Butler over a range of
37 issues?
38 A. Disgruntled and unhappy with Mr Butler over a few
39 issues? Me and Mr Butler do not see eye to eye on a lot of
40 things and I think I value the truth a lot more than
41 Mr Butler does.
42
43 Q. You have accused him in the past of not telling the
44 truth; is that right?
45 A. That's right.
46
47 Q. And you are also, are you not, someone who is
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1 disgruntled and unhappy with Mr Riordan in respect of
2 things that he said or did during the time he was
3 Secretary?
4 A. Let me say I've seen Mr Riordan's statement and I've
5 already stated that and he talks about the - we had a good
6 relationship until we had - he had a meeting and he gave me
7 a written warning. Well, that's a lie. I can't put it any
8 other way that that's a lie. I would like to see this