NTA No.2 REGION
LAW COMMISSIONMEETING
NEWCASTLE CIVIC CENTRE
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE
MINUTES OF MEETING
Monday 12th December 2011
E-mail:
ATTENDEES:
Richard Percival, Team Manager, Public Law Team, Law Commission
Melanie Bulman, Solicitor, Newcastle City Council
Jonathan Bryce, Licensing Team Manager, Newcastle City Council
Gerard Smith, Senior Licensing Officer, Newcastle City Council
Tim Gray, NTA Solicitor
Chris Chandler, Regional Director, NTA (Newcastle Airport)
Bob Snedden, Regional Chairman, NTA (North Tyneside)
Alan Shield, Regional Vice Chairman NTA (Derwentside, Durham)
Trevor Hines, Regional Secretary, NTA (Sunderland)
Mohamed Suliman, NODA Taxis (Newcastle)
Meeting Commenced: 11.10 am
Chaired by:Chris Chandler
Introduction:
Chris Chandler opened the meeting and welcomed Richard Percival of the Law Commission. He then thanked everyone else present for attending the meeting, and also thanked Jonathan Bryce of Newcastle City Council for arranging the venue within Newcastle Civic Centre.
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ONE/TWO-TIER SYSTEM:
1.1Richard Percival (RP) said that it was an interesting point that, apart from James Button, the attendees at the Law Commission Advisory Group Meeting on 22nd November 2011, had mainly agreed on a preference for a two-tier system. He went on to say that the voice of the individual PHV driver was seldom heard, and that it was usually organisations representing companies that were heard.
1.2Bob Snedden (BS) said that his Taxi Association in North Tyneside often has to speak up on behalf of individual PHV drivers.
1.3RP said that the Private Hire trade has a much more transient population, with PHV drivers entering and leaving the trade on a regular basis.
1.4BS said that hackney carriage (taxi) drivers tend to be in the business for the long haul, and it is more of a genuine occupation, perhaps for life.
1.5Tim Gray (TG) said that some representatives are not really representative, and the views of the general public are required.
1.6RP said that the Law Commission does not have an unlimited budget, and will have to listen to some organisations out of necessity. However, it may be possible to set up some inexpensive focus groups.
1.7BS said that in his opinion the 1847 Act is not broken, and will any replacement stand the test of time.
1.8RP hoped that any replacement would last for some decades.
1.9Mohamed Suliman (MS) asked which parts are the most challenging.
1.10RP said that this was a good question. It is about getting the main structure right, and once this is decided the other elements should fit in.
1.11Trevor Hines (TH) said that NALEO appear to consider that the 1976 Act creates more problems than the 1847 Act ever did.
1.12RP said that he hadn’t really picked up on this.
1.13MS said that if a one-tier system was introduced it would be difficult to provide any special requirements, such as a quality vehicle for a wedding booking. If all vehicles were taxis they may have to be a certain colour and they would have to display Council decals etc.
1.14RP said that there will always be a niche market for chauffeur systems and a requirement for certain types of vehicles.
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1.15Gerard Smith (GS) said that if a one-tier system was introduced then new conditions would have to apply to the new system.
1.16RP said that he understood that some Local Authorities currently have a colour code in place.
1.17BS said that with reference to the single owner of a hackney carriage that is undertaking purely taxi work, the 1847 Act is still fit for purpose.
1.18Jonathan Bryce (JB) said that we can’t ignore technology and changing trends.
1.19MS said that some companies have outgrown their boundaries and find that they have to sub contract some work to neighbouring operators. This is not causing any problems for anyone, but strictly speaking it is not legal under present law.
1.20RP said that with a more National PHV approach restrictions like this would probably go out of the window.
1.21MS asked where the Taxibank’s of this world will fit in with new legislation.
1.22RP said that he was unclear what MS was saying.
1.23TH said that Taxibank were facilitators, and not operators as such.
1.24RP said that he doesn’t see a problem with a facilitator operating in this way, and he couldn’t see any justification in stopping sub-contracting. The same applies to a PHV returning to its licensing area.
1.25BS said that a PHV licensed in his own area could operate in Penzance.
1.26GS said that this is covered in the London Act.
1.27RP said that it should be made sure that Penzance could check an out-of-area vehicle. He went on to say that he understood taxis have more local recognition, work locally from ranks, and in many cases there is an element of local pride involved.
1.28MS asked if there would be a Nation Database.
1.29RP suggested that there should be a lot of collaboration between Licensing Officers to deal with out-of-are enforcement
1.30JB said that his main concern is Newcastle vehicles and Newcastle customers.
1.31TG said that Berwick Borough Council did not want to know - they actually licensed vehicles and told proprietors that they didn’t want them to work in Berwick. Councils have enough enforcement to deal with in their own licensing areas.
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1.32RP said that there is no way in the present climate that there will be a National Taxi Police. Enforcement should be paid for out of the trade licence fee, and how tax payer’s money is spent is not for the Law Commission to decide.
1.33Alan Shield (AS) said that Enforcement Officers in County Durham cover pubs, clubs, vending machines etc., and taxis seem to be bottom of the list.
1.34TH said that the present (and the previous) Government appear to want to devolve more powers to Local Authorities, and favour taxi licensing as a local issue. Only last week the Deputy Prime Minister was in Newcastle to announce more powers for some super cities.
1.35 RP said that Localism is a good point, but a National setting for PHV’s would be a cheaper, better and smarter situation.
1.36 MS said that there are different age limits in certain areas.
1.37RP said that there could be a National standard for PHV’s.
1.38BS felt that this was being driven economically, and public protection should be of paramount importance. Newcastle City Council takes this on board with their licensing and enforcement.
1.39TH said that the new Super PHV operations like Addison Lee, Delta, and Blue Line in this area, appear to want a “laissez-faire” situation with little or no licensing controls. They don’t want Local Licensing and seem to despise Enforcement Officers and Licensing Departments. Controls are important to protect the public and also the smaller one man taxi operator.
1.40RP said that we live in a Capitalist societyand large groups could conceivably wipe out the street corner hackney carriage, but he went on to say that public protection is important.
1.41BS said that if a one-tier system were to be introduced it would result in every taxi having to go on to some form of radio circuit.
ENFORCEMENT & LICENSING:
1.42RP said that there is an Operator’s Licence for PHV’s, why not for Hackney Carriages? He said that he has yet to be convinced that there is a need for one on the PHV side, but he accepted that it was good for record keeping and complaints. New technology could possibly replace the need for an Operator’s Licence.
1.43 MS said that he was operating a mixed fleet of Hackney Carriages and Private Hire Vehicles, and often wondered why he needed an Operator’s Licence. His modern operating system is capable of providing any information concerning taxi bookings.
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1.44BS said that there is nothing in legislation to say that the “Proprietor” of a Hackney Carriage is a fit and proper person.
1.45TG said that he found it hard to justify that one group requires a licence and another group doesn’t. If the Law Commission is starting with a blank canvas then this could be looked at. He went on to discuss the new Unitary Authorities, and how some like Cornwall have retained zoning whilst others like Durham have abandoned zoning.
1.46AS gave a laptop presentation that showed the extreme congestion that has developed in Durham City since zoning was abandoned, with taxis from all the outlying areas converging on Durham as it is perceived to be the “honeypot” area. It has resulted in the general lack of availability of taxis in the outlying areas.
1.47BS produced photographs of taxis ranking up in Tynemouth at peak periods due to the economic downturn.
1.48RP said that he was aware that under present legislation that if zoning was abolished in a Local Authority area it could not be re-instated. He felt that Local Authorities should get their boundaries correct, and the Law Commission could possibly address the problem of not being able to re-instate zones.
1.49JB said that over-ranking and congestion can lead to fare refusals, with drivers waiting for that one good long job.
1.50 RP said that taxis can have some “clout” in Local politics, as he has discovered in Liverpool.
1.51MS asked if there were any recommendations for vehicle testing.
1.52RP said that as far as legal responsibility is concerned Local Authorities are given the appropriate powers to make rules within certain parameters. He didn’t really want to get into the argument of whether an MOT is good enough for a taxi or a PHV.
1.53MS felt that vehicle testing should be equally good in say Leeds or Newcastle.
DISABILITIES:
1.54TH said that the trade are still waiting for a percentage requirement for wheelchair accessible vehicles in a Local Authority licensing area from the Equality Commission. The percentage was supposed to be announced in April 2011.
1.55GS said that in his opinion Private Hire is a bit of a “mish-mash” at the moment with regard to wheelchair accessibility.
1.56RP said that the disability lobby appears to be fine with PHV’s at the moment.
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1.57TH said that he found this surprising, as consultation with Disabled Groups inmost of the recent unmet Demand Surveys undertaken in Sunderland had identified an aspiration for more wheelchair accessible vehicles. However, this was based on difficulties experienced with booking a wheelchair accessible PHV by telephone. At just over 50% of the total fleet, there are more than enough wheelchair accessible Hackney Carriages to servicethe taxi ranks and to undertakeany street hiring.
1.58 RP said that most Disabled Groups think that driver training is essential. He then said that this issue would be harder to deal with in a one-tier system.
1.59MS asked if it would be left to the free market.
1.60RP said that he didn’t think so.
QUANTITY RESTRICTIONS:
1.61RP thought that the taxi trade has a long way to go to justify the retention of quantity controls. Quantity restriction has to be justified, if something is left to the free market it is normally in the public interest. Congestion could fit in with this thinking.
1.62TH said that an Ipsos MORI Residents’ Survey undertaken for Sunderland City Council last year had identified a top satisfaction rating of 88% for the availability of taxis, with public transport coming second at 61%. It also showed a steady increase in “net” satisfaction over the last six years from 80% to 87% with public transport once again second, starting and finishing at 45% with fluctuations in- between the same six years period. The recent Halcrow Unmet Demand Survey commissioned by Sunderland City Council and formally accepted on 31st October 2011 by the Regulatory Committee identified that there was no significant unmet demand for taxis in both Sunderland zones. In fact the ISUD in the Sunderland city zone had fallen from “8” in the last survey undertaken in 2005 to “0” in the recent survey. An ISUD of above “80” is the accepted level at which significant unmet demand is identified and an increase in the number of licenses is recommended. There was direct and indirect consultation with many stakeholders and groups, including the Police, Safer City Partnership, Disability Representatives, Council Highways Department, Equality and Diversity Group – University of Sunderland, Network Development (Strategy) – Sunderland City Council. The general consensus was that there is an adequate supply of taxis and the trade appears to have a good image with high quality vehicles and courteous and polite drivers. Northumbria Police even pointed to the chaos created in Durham since the recent decision to abolish quantity controls and zoning. The taxi trade doesn’t need to argue against the removal of quantity controls based purely on the financial implications for drivers, as it has the support of many diverse groups to retain existing quantity controls.
1.63RP said that these different arguments will give him something to think about, it is a more holistic and sophisticated approach to deregulation of the taxi trade.
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1.64TH said that the late Gwyneth Dunwoodie’s Transport Select Committee tore the OFT Report on Taxis to shreds in 2003/4. The report recommended the removal of quantity controls, yet within their own report the OFT found waiting times in restricted areas was 30% lower than in unrestricted areas. The Transport Select Committee said that it looked suspiciously like discarding the inconvenient data.
1.65RP said that he couldn’t recall that being said in the OFT Report.
1.66TH then read the particular sections from the Transport Select Committee Response to the OFT Report. He then went on to say that Carlisle deregulated about five years ago, and it has since gone from a double to a single shifted operation with owner drivers “cherry picking” and working at the busiest times. It may be easier for a drunk to get home at 3.00 am on Sunday morning after a Saturday night drinking session, but poor old Mrs Smith has great difficulty in obtaining a taxi at 6.00 am to go to the railway station as all the drivers are in bed. The Council have recently written to all licence holders to ask if they are prepared to pay an extra £30 per year over the next three years on their annual licence fee to fund an Unmet Demand Survey. This is with a view to once again being able to impose quantity controls, as there is now an over supply of taxis in Carlisle. Other Local Authorities have also had to re-introduce quantity controls recently due to the over supply of taxis and the resulting congestion that it has caused.
1.67MS said that customers are better served when the trade is regulated, fares can actually rise in a deregulated situation as more and more drivers work longer hours for less work and “cherry-pick” jobs.
1.68Chris Chandler (CC) said that there are 780 Hackney Carriages and over 1100 PHV’s licensed in Newcastle, and this is more than adequate to clear the city.
1.69TH said that deregulation hadn’t worked in the bus industry, with more and more none commercial services being withdrawn. He had attended a meeting of the Tyne & Wear Integrated Transport Authority last Friday where a form of “Transport for London” bus operation was proposed for Tyne & Wear. The Authority want more accountability for the £62M per year that they spend on public transport, and say that the travelling public are not satisfied with the present service that is being provided. The bus companies deny the allegations and will fight the proposed changes, but it looks as though a more regulated operation is on the horizon.
1.70BS said that comparisons can be made between regulated and deregulated areas, which will show what can happen when quantity controls are removed.
1.71RP noted the different approach to quantity control and said that he will take it away and think about it.
As there were no other issues to discuss the Chairman thanked Richard Percival for attending and closed the meeting at 1.15 pm.