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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N H-371853
MR I. HANGER AM QC, Commissioner
ROYAL COMMISSION INTO THE
HOME INSULATION PROGRAM
BRISBANE
9.30 AM, MONDAY, 12 MAY 2014
Continued from 9.5.14
DAY 31
MR K.N. WILSON QC appears with MR J.R. HORTON as counsel assisting
MR T. HOWE QC appears with MR D. O’DONOVAN for the Commonwealth of Australia
MR M. WINDSOR QC appears with MS O’GORMAN for Peter Stewart and 72 others
MR T. BRADLEY QC appears with MS A.J. COULTHARD for the State of Queensland
MR D. BARROW appears with MS C. HUNTER for Jessica Wilson on behalf of the family of Marcus Wilson
MR C. BROWNE appears for Murray Barnes
MS E.S. WILSON appears for the family of Rueben Barnes
MR D.C. FAHL appears for the family of Mitchell Sweeney
MR A. ANDERSON appears for the family of Matthew Fuller
MR G.C. McCARTHY appears for Aaron Hughes
MR M. SPRY appears for William Kimber
MR A. POMERENKE QC appears for Mark Arbib
Copyright in Transcript is owned by the Commonwealth of Australia. Apart from any use permitted under the Copyright Act 1968 you are not permitted to reproduce, adapt, re-transmit or distribute the Transcript material in any form or by any means without seeking prior written approval.
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MR WILSON: Commissioner, the next witness is Mark Victor Arbib.
COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Swear the witness.
MR A. POMERENKE QC: Should I announce my appearance, Commissioner? Pomerenke, p-o-m-e-r-e-n-k-e, I appear for Mr Arbib.
COMMISSIONER: You appear for Mr Arbib, Mr Pomerenke. Thank you.
MR POMERENKE: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER: Anyone else appearing that’s not
MS E.S. WILSON QC: Your Honour, I’m a new face. My name is Wilson, initials E.S, of Queen’s Counsel. And I appear for the Barnes siblings family, instructed by Norton Rose Fulbright. Mr Aaron Anderson will be appearing for the Fuller family today. He’s
COMMISSIONER: Have we got two representations there?
MS WILSON: That is the case.
COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
MR C. BROWNE: Your Honour, if it pleases. My name is Browne, spelt b-r-o-w-n-e, initial C, solicitor of Potts lawyers. For this morning, I will be appearing for Mr Murray Barnes.
COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, swear them in.
<MARK VICTOR ARBIB, SWORN [9.32 am]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WILSON
COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Arbib. Mr Wilson.
MR WILSON: Thank you. Your name is Mark Victor Arbib?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: And you’ve provided a statement to the Commission, dated 9 May 2014.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
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MR WILSON: Do you have a copy of the statement with you?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: Are there any matters that you wish to correct or clarify in the statement?
THE WITNESS: No.
MR WILSON: You were responsible, between 25 February 2009 and 9 June 2009, for oversight of the entire Nation Building and Jobs Plan, is that so?
THE WITNESS: Oversight?
MR WILSON: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Well, I was involved. I was the parliamentary secretary to the Prime Minister.
MR WILSON: Yes. Yes.
THE WITNESS: So I was – I wouldn’t say I had total oversight of the stimulus package.
MR WILSON: You were involved in all of the elements of the Nation Building program announced on 3 February 2009?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: And I understand that – we’re only concerned with what is a relatively small section of that plan, the Energy Efficient Homes Package. You’re aware of that?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: At paragraph 5 of your statement, were you aware at the time of your appointment that phase 1 of the Energy Efficient Homes Package had commenced?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: And that the main rollout or what became known as phase 2 was to commence on 1 July 2009?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
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MR WILSON: How did you come to be appointed as the parliamentary secretary for government services delivery and have a role in the Nation Building and Jobs Plan?
THE WITNESS: I was appointed by the Prime Minister.
MR WILSON: Yes. Were you given any instructions as to what your role was?
THE WITNESS: I would have received a charter letter from the Prime Minister, which outlined the form of the roles, yes.
MR WILSON: Did you retain that letter?
THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
MR WILSON: What was your role, to the best of your recollection, as you were instructed in that letter?
THE WITNESS: The best of my recollection was to assist with the coordination, communication and facilitation of the stimulus package across all the different areas from the building of the education revolution to the social housing, across all the – I think there was six different major departmental or program areas.
MR WILSON: And in practical terms, what did that involve?
THE WITNESS: It was very broad. But mostly it was working with the Office of the Coordinator-General and then Coordinator Mike Mrdak, a great deal of communicating and providing information across the country to the public, but also to industry groups and bodies.
MR WILSON: Did you have any decision-making roles?
THE WITNESS: I didn’t administer any of the portfolio areas, so no, I didn’t.
MR WILSON: Was it ever explained to you at the outset why 1 July had been chosen as the date that phase 2 of the program was to commence?
THE WITNESS: No.
MR WILSON: Did you regard that as an inflexible date from the time of your appointment?
THE WITNESS: It was a date I was told that was accepted by the government or put forward by the government and accepted by COAG.
MR WILSON: Did you regard it as an inflexible date? That is, if you came to the view during work that you were doing that it couldn’t be achieved, did you consider
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you had either the power or the responsibility to advise the Prime Minister or the government of that fact?
THE WITNESS: I understood that was the date that had been put forward by the government and I was trying to meet that date.
MR WILSON: And my question is if you came to the view that that date couldn’t be achieved without some diminishing of the program, it wasn’t acceptable, did you regard it was in your area of responsibility or power to advise the government of that fact?
THE WITNESS: I was advised by all the departments that was involved that the date was achievable.
MR WILSON: I will come back and ask you a third time. If for whatever reason you came to the view that it wasn’t achievable without sacrificing some important part of the plan, did you consider you had either the power or the responsibility to advise the government of that fact?
THE WITNESS: I never came to that view.
MR WILSON: Did you consider you had that power or responsibility?
THE WITNESS: I was only a parliamentary secretary at the time, so I don’t think I considered that.
MR WILSON: You didn’t consider it?
THE WITNESS: My recollection is I didn’t consider it, yes.
MR WILSON: Thank you. Now, at the time that you were appointed there had already been a meeting of COAG on 5 February?
THE WITNESS: That’s – I’m not sure of the date, but I understand there was a meeting of COAG, yes.
MR WILSON: Well, before you were appointed, there had been a meeting of COAG?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. Yes.
MR WILSON: Were you given any documents that reflected the outcomes of that meeting?
THE WITNESS: Not that I can recall, no.
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MR WILSON: You say in your statement at paragraph 7 that COAG had set guidelines – timelines. From where did you derive that understanding?
THE WITNESS: From the Office of the Coordinator-General.
MR WILSON: And who in that office advised you that COAG had set timelines?
THE WITNESS: It would have been either Mr Mrdak or Mr Wilson.
MR WILSON: At the time you were appointed, the Office of Coordinator-General had already been established?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: And Mr Mrdak was the Coordinator-General?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: Were you aware that there had also been industry consultation held on 6 and 18 February 2009?
THE WITNESS: Just run those dates past me again, please.
MR WILSON: 6 and 18 February 2009.
THE WITNESS: I wasn’t aware of any consultation on the 6th. I was informed that there had been a consultation on the 18th.
MR WILSON: Who informed you of that?
THE WITNESS: It would have been – well, my best recollection, it was either Mr Mrdak or Mr Wilson.
MR WILSON: Somebody from the Office of Coordinator-General?
THE WITNESS: At that time, when I found about the consultation, yes.
MR WILSON: Were you provided with a copy of the minutes of the meeting of the industry consultation on 18 February?
THE WITNESS: No.
MR WILSON: Have you since read those minutes?
THE WITNESS: No.
MR WILSON: You’ve never seen them?
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THE WITNESS: No.
MR WILSON: Can I show you document ABC.002.001.0361? We will just work through this in a moment, but I will bring up a copy that’s not the draft, so you’re satisfied it’s the final minutes. You said you were aware that there had been industry consultation. Were you aware that it took place on 18 February?
THE WITNESS: I don’t recall at the time knowing the date. But subsequently I’ve read that in statements and
MR WILSON: Documents
THE WITNESS: documents, yes.
MR WILSON: Can you scroll down to page 5, please. Now, this hasn’t changed between the draft and the final minutes. If I can get you to go to the fourth dot point on the page, starting, “It was proposed that people” – “that are already in the industry” – do you have that dot point?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: Could you then go down to the third-last line of that dot point to Peter Rouse?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: And just read those three lines to yourself.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: Were you made aware of that information at or shortly after the time of your appointment?
THE WITNESS: I don’t recall ever being made aware of that.
MR WILSON: Do you consider that’s an important piece of information?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: And that you should have been made aware of it?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: But it’s your evidence that that piece of information provided by Mr Rouse was never communicated to you?
THE WITNESS: I think I would have remembered if someone had told me that.
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MR WILSON: Yes. What about more generally that there had been fatalities in New Zealand associated with the stapling of metal foil?
THE WITNESS: I don’t recall ever being told that.
MR WILSON: Now, in terms of the HIP – you’ve explained your role generally in relation to the stimulus program. I just want to understand what your role was as compared to Minister Garrett’s role, as compared to the Prime Minister’s role. Can you explain that to the Commission, please?
THE WITNESS: I didn’t have any decision-making role, in terms of the HIP, I was working with the Coordinator General’s Office, in terms of coordination and trying to – and communication. I thought it was an important project – there was going to be jobs, there was going to be energy efficiency savings and I thought a large part of my job was to communicate it out into the community.
MR WILSON: Was it to facilitate the rollout by 1 July of the main part of the program, if that was possible?
THE WITNESS: Well, that was the role that the Coordinator-General was undertaking.
MR WILSON: And the Coordinator-General was reporting to you?
THE WITNESS: My understanding at the time was the Coordinator-General was reporting to myself, but also to the Prime Minister.
MR WILSON: Yes, I was going to ask that, but reporting to you and to your knowledge also directly to the Prime Minister?
THE WITNESS: That was my understanding. Yes.
MR WILSON: Did you know or were you informed whether the Coordinator-General also reported to Minister Garrett?
THE WITNESS: The Coordinator-General wouldn’t have reported to – one of the departmental Ministers.
MR WILSON: And I’m just interested in understanding whether you had discussions with Minister Garrett to clarify what you would be doing because his department had responsibility and he had Ministerial responsibility for the program, didn’t he?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR WILSON: To clarify what you would be doing and what he would be doing?