Rebecca WAV 07/02/2014
[Interview proper begins at: 0:00:08]
I: Hi [Name: 0:00:08]
R: Hi.
I: I’m [Name: 0:00:09] and I work as an independent careers consultant. I’m based here in the West Midlands and I’ve worked as a careers consultant for the past 12 years and I support both individuals and organisations in a range of activities that support both career choice and career change. The types of organisations that I support vary from education, health, a number of commercial enterprises and the not for profit sector, so I’ve been supporting a large restructuring programme recently with a big company locally, so that just gives you a little bit...
R: ...Yes, yes.
I: ...In terms of my background and insight. My professional experience is in Human Resources, so recruitment and selection and I’ve also worked in Training and Development, so that’s a sort of insight that I bring to some of the things that I’m going to be talking about and hoping to explore with you.
R: Okay.
I: So that’s just a little bit about me and my background.
R: Okay.
I: And it’s great to see you here today.
R: Nice to be here.
I: Good. So perhaps if you just want to kick off by telling me a little bit about what’s brought you here today?
R: Okay. Well, I am 40 years old and I’ve been working since I can remember through child rearing and still been working.
I: Yes, yes.
R: And I worked...I really enjoyed the Customer Service Industry working for [Airline: 0:01:45] and...
I: ...So is that your first job role – [Airline: 0:01:48]?
R: Probably my first serious job, yes. That was the one which I aspired to management and got quite close to that point.
I: So how long were you with [Airline: 0:02:00] for?
R: I was with [Airline: 0:02:01] for about three years – two or three years.
I: Okay, yes so that’s your first serious role?
R: Serious after university. I graduated with a 2.1 in...no, 2.2 – 2.2.
I: Oh well it’s a detail.
R: I like to tell myself it was a 2.1 – yes it’s such a little number.
I: Yes.
R: And in Communication Arts and French, so...but I wanted to work with [Airline: 0:02:20], which I did do.
I: And that was in Customer Services?
R: Yes. It was working as ground staff in the airport.
I: Great. Did you enjoy that?
R: I loved it. It was my favourite job ever.
I: Really? Yes.
R: I got rubbish salary, but I loved the kudos that the role had. I love the fact that you get cheap travel, nice uniform. Everybody would want to know about your job. You’d got interesting customers, angry customers. I loved diffusing the anger.
I: Right, yes great.
R: And I was...and I worked my way up quite quickly in that role and then when to work for the Chief Executive about a year and a half later in charge of a team of letter writers for the Chief Executive and then I was asked to work for my mum who ran an electronics company and I really wasn’t that interested...
I: ...Right.
R: ...Until she gave me the salary and it was much better. It was closer to home because I was travelling to [Airport: 0:03:22] every day.
I: Okay.
R: And I decided...they offered me more money, she’d offer me more money. They’d offer...and it went on like this and then I decided to go and work for the then...the company was then called [Company Name: 0:03:36].
I: So this is a family run business?
R: A family run business, yes.
I: Yes. What sort of number of employees are we talking about there?
R: It had about probably 16 at the time. It now has about 28.
I: Great.
R: And I worked in sales and I didn’t really love it. I did it and I...and everyone told me I was good at it, but I didn’t really enjoy it. I didn’t like...if the customer rang me I’d have a bit of a – “Oh gosh, what’s wrong?” sort of thing. I didn’t really enjoy it, I have to say.
I: Right.
R: I was made Sales Director and then the business was sold during that time and everything carried on the same and my...then I had a very...personally, a very difficult time. My son died.
I: Oh gosh.
R: And then my mum died.
I: Right.
R: Both in very extraordinary sudden circumstances and also...so my mum, who was the Chief Executive and there was a Managing Director and I was asked to become a joint Managing Director with this other guy.
I: Yes.
R: Well...sorry, I’d better...so then I was due to be doing that with him. He decided to leave and my mum passed away. She died in a car crash, so I was in this situation where I was running a business. I had no...I’d just been the Sales Director and so I had no training. I had no one to help me do it because...
I: ...So you took on that responsibility?
R: So I took on that responsibility, largely for my brother and my husband that worked in the company and I had cousins and aunts as well.
I: So how long ago...?
R: This was 2008.
I: Right, okay.
R: And then the economic downturn came and we also lost through very underhand tactics due to the Managing Director who’d left. He went and got business direct, so he went to the suppliers and got them to...and the customer.
I: Okay.
R: And we lost our largest customer, which was B & Q at the time, so we lost 50% of our turnover. I had to make 30% redundancies.
I: Right.
R: And then really try and grow the business, which I did, very successfully – not very successfully – I did it.
I: Right and you grew the business again?
R: I grew the business again.
I: Yes, great.
R: Back to...it went down to 20 people. It’s now back up to 30. We doubled our profits last year from the previous year.
I: Great.
R: And the whole...the graphs that I present to the board who now own the company all look fantastic.
I: It looks very healthy?
R: Yes.
I: Yes, great.
R: But the board who bought the company want it to be a centralised business. They want it to be operated largely from [Country: 0:06:17] and therefore, I will be made redundant at some point this month.
I: Okay. Right, okay.
R: I found out a couple of weeks ago.
I: Were you expecting that? Was it something you were anticipating?
R: A couple of other countries; their Managing Directors had been made redundant, but they had centralised warehouses and centralised accounts. We don’t.
I: Right.
R: So I had thought it would take longer for them to come round, for the wolves to come to the door, but actually I’ve sort of pushed it because I couldn’t bear the uncertainty. I’m the type of person...I really like to know where I am.
I: Right, okay.
R: I cannot...in fact I’m waiting to find out more about it and I just hate that period of not knowing.
I: Of not knowing, right okay.
R: And I’ve had to learn to curtail that in my career because quite often you jump in and you try and sort something out, whereas if you left it for a bit it would be better, so...
I: Right, so just to clarify then.
R: Yes.
I: The potential redundancy is something that you’ve chosen?
R: No. I chose to speed it up.
I: Right.
R: They said to me, “We will let you know in quarter one,” and then in January, at the beginning, I was there thinking, ‘I can’t bear this. I can’t wait, just waiting.’
I: Okay.
R: And also, there’s very...there’s a Sales Director in the company who I recruited who’s very, very successful, but he’s having conversations with the Head Office directly and so it’s a very impossible situation for me to manage because they’re not saying, “Well no, you need to go via [Name: 0:07:38].” They were almost cutting me out anyway, so I really couldn’t bear that.
I: Right, so that pattern and that kind of behaviour would be pretty symptomatic of organisations of any size really going through a significant change?
R: Yes.
I: In terms of people’s changes to behaviour?
R: Right.
I: And changes in relationships. It’s very commonplace in organisations that are going through a significant process of change.
R: Oh okay.
I: But it’s also very frustrating and the reason I’m pointing this out is that because of my past experience of people going through a process of redundancy, sometimes people get very attached to that frustration, or it goes forward with them.
R: Yes, yes.
I: So, what I’m trying to say is that in terms of a big picture here, going through this process of change...
R: ...Oh yes.
I: ...Many other people experience this.
R: Thank you, yes.
I: And the sooner you kind of notice it, think of...you know...a number of people going through that process, it’s not about you.
R: Oh absolutely, no. That’s right.
I: I think again, my own experience of supporting people through a process of redundancy is that people personalise it, so it feels like the process is about them. It feels like it’s ‘something that I did’, whereas in fact, as you...the story you’ve just told is very much about it’s a business decision.
R: A business decision.
I: It’s a commercial reality.
R: That’s correct, yes.
I: But because we’re human and we’re individual, often we feel these things and it feels very personal and it can feel very emotional.
R: Yes. No, I feel quite...once this period...I feel like...I don’t know. I watched a film the other day called Castaway and he’s trying to get out to the calm of the sea and he tries it twice and he can’t get through the breakers. The waves are so vast and he can’t get there, but once he does he’s off and he’s fine and that’s how I feel. I’m trying to get through that – just this difficult period. Then when that’s over...
I: ...That’s a really interesting metaphor isn’t it and it’s quite a nice picture that you’ve created there?
R: Yes, yes.
I: But equally it’s quite a challenging picture.
R: It is, but it is challenging.
I: Yes, so I’m just thinking, if we were to use this metaphor of the breaker, what is it that you’re...what kind of support are you getting to help you get over that wave?
R: Oh well, I’ve got my husband who works with me and he’s amazing. I’ve got my faith and I’ve got friends that are praying for me and I’ve also got security in knowing that I won’t have to sell the house if I get made redundant.
I: Right.
R: I am in a very nice position compared to many millions of other people being made redundant, so you have to put it in perspective.
I: Of course. Okay, so that’s a lovely word isn’t it?
R: I don’t feel I really need support because it’s just part of business life and I’ve been through much worse.
I: But in terms of why you’ve chosen to engage with talking to a careers coach today...
R: ...Oh yes, sorry.
I: ...I’m just curious to know what it is would be most useful for you to get out of this exchange...
R: ...Okay, yes okay.
I: ...Given that you’ve already identified the metaphor of ‘there’s a breaker there’ so I’m thinking...
R: ...Okay...
I: ...Is there something we can do today...?
R: ...Yes, yes.
I: ...That supports you as you move from one side of the wave to the other or...?
R: ...Yes, of course, of course...
I: ...If you’re happy with that kind of...?
R: ...Sorry, yes.
I: No, don’t apologise.
R: No, no. I’m wallowing in the waves. Okay, so no – I think I really feel I need a period of time where I can just chill, because it’s so...been so demanding.
I: Right.
R: So I’d like...I thought in my mind that I would take a year out to...not a year, but just as long as it took to really think about what career I need next.
I: Okay, that sounds exciting.
R: And I’d like to do something and I have so many different things that I think I could do.
I: Sure.
R: And that people tell me I could do quite well, so...
I: Right.
R: I...through my experiences of loss I had a psychologist for two years and actually then went on to speak to other psychologists about my experience of infant loss and I found that really rewarding.
I: Right.
R: It wasn’t helpful in the respect that it made me feel any better about losing my son, but it was really rewarding helping...
I: ...The process?
R: Yes, other people.
I: Right, okay.
R: And I do really enjoy helping other people and it doesn’t necessarily have to be about infant loss.
I: No.
R: And I am told that I give good advice and I have employees that would say that and bring me cards and say, ‘Thank you for helping me out.’
I: Great.
R: So I’d like...I’ve been looking at life coaching and counselling, but I’m not sure whether life coaching is a bit airy-fairy and a bit flaky and, you know, I want to be serious about what I do and I don’t want to just...I’d take it very seriously if I was helping somebody.
I: If we think about the future and you started off by saying, ‘I’m 40...’
R: ...Yes.
I: And I’m going to come back to that because I think you’ve told me because it’s significant to you.
R: Yes, yes.
I: And I’m wondering if we look at the future and your working life...
R: ...Yes.
I: What period of time do you see looking forward in terms of your working life? How many years do you think until you retire?
R: I think if I’ve got a good work life balance it would be 20 years.
I: Yes, okay.
R: I certainly wouldn’t want a job that I’ve been...like I’ve been in now – high pressure, figures got to be sent in, working with family. I wouldn’t want that for the next 20 years.
I: Right, okay right.
R: But something that I could build so the children were priority, so I could pick them up from school and I could be there for them would be my ideal really.
I: Okay, so this is a significant change now isn’t it?
R: Yes, it is.
I: So it’s not...this is not just about your career?
R: No.
I: This is about thinking about the ways in which when I make a change in the future, it’s going to be enriching?
R: Yes.
I: It’s going to be enriching on a professional development level?
R: Yes.
I: It’s going to be enriching in terms of how I manage my time...
R: ...Yes.
I: ...Because I’m going to have more work life balance, potentially get to spend more rewarding time with my own family?
R: Yes.
I: So in terms of a bigger picture here that’s what we’re looking at?
R: Yes.
I: We’re not just looking at career choice, but we’re also looking at the benefits that this choice will make on your work life balance?
R: Yes, yes.
I: And the reason I’m pressing this point is that when people make changes, particularly when they’re going through a period of redundancy, is they lose sight of why they’re making the change, or why they’re making the choice, so it’s easy just to get sucked into more work, to go back to being a Sales Director because you’re good at it...
R: ...That’s what you know, yes.
I: People will say, “Oh we’ve got this opportunity and maybe you just want to come and fill in.”
R: Yes...no.
I: So the more grounded you are in your motivation for making this choice the more likelihood you’re going to follow it through, stick with it and make a significant change.
R: Yes, yes.
I: So I’m directing you now to think about just the two elements here, so the career choice, but also the lifestyle choice.
R: Absolutely.
I: And that somewhere you kind of mark that and think, ‘Yes, it’s not just about the job, but it’s about a quality of life, which is a bigger issue’?
R: Yes, that’s very clear yes.
I: And I think again my own experience of supporting people is they go through big changes like this, is that although it’s not necessarily chosen, it throws up the opportunity to consider...
R: ...Exactly.
I: ...Where you are at this particular life stage.
R: Exactly, yes.
I: Because for you, 40 is a key life stage isn’t it?
R: Yes, it is.
I: Because you have a big future awaiting you don’t you?
R: Yes, yes exactly and I’ve had 15 years in the same company with the same people and it would be really nice to have a change.
I: Yes. The other thing that is important to recognise and make sure you give credit to is those 15 years, because you do have a significant work history, a significant work background. We’d need to be sure that you’re capturing that and you take that forward, so what many people do in this situation is think, ‘I don’t want any more sales.’ You know, ‘I so don’t want to be able to do that again because I’ve had enough of that,’ but actually what we need to do it is pull out of that the bits that you liked...
R: Okay.
I: You know...the key relationships that you build, the strong feedback that you’ve got from staff and people you’ve managed around the team building and skill building.
R: Yes, okay.
I: And to take that forward and to use that in what’s coming next, rather than it’s commonplace that people sort of park that.
R: That’s it, yes.
I: And say “No more of that.”
R: Yes.
I: “I want something different.”
R: Yes, I can see that.
I: “I’m going to put my energies into that.”
R: Yes.
I: But actually, the story comes with us and we need to kind of feel good about it.
R: Yes.
I: And create some positive stories about, you know, what we like.
R: Yes.
I: In the same way you obviously felt really good about [Airline: 0:16:13].
R: Yes.
I: Eventually you will get a really good strong story about the family firm and I’m reassuring you that you will.
R: Yes, that’s good.
I: Because, you know, obviously I follow people through the process and maybe check back in with them when they’ve made a significant change. For instance, a number of clients that I’ve supported through redundancy over the years have taken the opportunity to downsize and to work less hours for instance. I’m not saying you would necessarily do that, but you know, in terms of a work life balance that has been one option that somebody has chosen to follow through. Okay, so this change – the significant change is going to throw up an opportunity for you to consider both career choice, but also to think about life style balance. You started to pick up on the elements of career choice, or some things you’re curious about, one of which was around supporting others, or maybe a guidance and counselling role.