The Protected Trust Deed Working Group
Room 109, Europa Building, Glasgow
Wednesday 10 March 2010, 14:00 – 16:00
Present:
Rosemary Winter-Scott Chief Executive, AiB (Chair)
David Hill BDO (ICAS)
David Brown A G Taggart & Co
Nick Robinson Practiser Recovery (IIPS)
Yvonne MacDermid Money Advice Scotland
Susan McPhee Citizens Advice Scotland
Martin Prigent TDX Group
Alan Duncan HMRC
Tracy Flett RBS (BBA)
Euan McPherson Lloyds Banking Group
Maureen Leslie MLM CPS Ltd (IPA)
Mike Norris (by phone link) J P Morgan
Sharon Bell AiB
John Cook AiB
In attendance:
Elizabeth Ferguson AiB Secretariat
Comments electronically
Blair Nimmo KPMG
Apologises:
Blair Nimmo KPMG
Rod Ashley Scotwest Credit Union
Angus McIntosh Castlemilk Law Centre (SALC)
Welcome, introduction, and apologies
1. The Chair welcomed all members to the meeting thanking them for their attendance. Apologies were received from Blair Nimmo, Rod Ashley and Angus McIntosh.
2. The Chair provided a background to the formation of the group advising that the Minister, Fergus Ewing, has asked Rosemary Winter-Scott to Chair the working group to review the Protected Trust Deed process (PTD). This is a short life group with only five meetings scheduled. The aim of the group is to come up with recommendations to be placed before the Minister prior to the summer recess. The Chair advised the group that following the submission to the Minister further consultation on Protected Trust Deeds will take place. The members of the group represent a cross section of stakeholders. Following discussion it was agreed that the Terms of Reference would be amended to include details of each member’s role within their organisation.
ACTION POINT: Liz Ferguson to update the membership of the group shown on the Terms of Reference.
Terms of Reference
3. The group discussed the Terms of Reference to outline the aims of the group. The group, over the next five meetings, will look at the whole PTD process. This will include looking at the referral of Trust Deeds from debt management companies. The question was raised as to who regulates these companies. In order to address this matter it was decided that a representative from the Office of Fair Trading should be invited to join the group. Members agreed the Terms of Reference.
ACTION POINT: Sharon Bell to liaise with her contact at the Office of Fair Trading regarding their attendance at the working group meeting when there is a discussion on the PTD process.
Review of Initial Evidence
4. Discussion took place around the mind map of issues and the two papers submitted by AiB. The first paper, a review of a sample of PTDs submitted to AiB from 1 April 2009 to 30 September 2009, highlighted comparisons with the review undertaken in the corresponding period of the previous year. The second paper, submitted by the AiB Supervision Team, showed the projected outcomes as provided on Form 3 by the trustee at the outset of the Trust Deed with the revised figures provided by the trustee at the end of year one on Form4. Both papers illustrated a trend where the projected cost of the PTDs had increased whereas projected dividends to creditors had reduced. Discussion around this matter ensued. The group agreed these papers highlighted some issues of concern which merited further scrutiny by the PTD Working Group. The specific issues would be examined in greater detail at subsequent meetings. Views were expressed that from a creditor’s perspective the impact of PTDs was very similar to that of bankruptcy therefore process revisions should focus on ensuring clear delineation between bankruptcies and PTDs.
Other sources of Evidence
5. The ICAS draft report from the Trust Deed Working Group had been circulated on 10 March 2010, to all members of the ICAS working group for their comments. Following comments from the group, to be submitted by Wednesday 17 March 2010, the report will be published. It was agreed this would be another source of evidence to be considered by the group
Schedule and Agenda for remaining meetings
6. The group agreed the proposed topics for discussion at the subsequent meetings:
· the PTD process
· Fees and Dividends
· Supervision of the PTDs
7. Following a debate around the topics for discussion, the group agreed that the PTD process would require substantial discussion as it is a particularly weighty subject. As a result it was suggested that two meetings should be assigned to discuss the PTD process at the meetings to be held on 31March and 21April2010. Fees and Dividends will be discussed at the 12 May 2010 meeting with the Supervision of PTDS being discussed at the final meeting on 2 June 2010. The adoption of this approach would mean that recommendations would need to be discussed and agreed as the meetings progressed though the final recommendations may need to be cleared electronically.
8. The Chair sought contributions from members of the group to aid discussion at each of the meetings. She felt it was essential that the ideas and suggestions should come from the group (sector) rather than just AiB. The following offers were made:
ACTION POINTS:
A) Process meetings 2 and 3
Mike Norris offered to produce a submission summarising similar process in other countries as another source of evidence for discussion.
Susan McPhee, Yvonne MacDermid, Martin Prigent and Nick Robinson also agreed to contribute to a paper for discussion on the PTD process.
B) Fees and Dividends
Maureen Leslie, Mike Norris, Martin Prigent, and Alan Duncan agreed to submit papers for discussion on fees and dividends.
C) Supervision
AiB, Mike Norris and Martin Prigent agreed to submit a paper for discussion on the Supervision of PTDs.
D) Tracy Flett stated that followingdiscussions with other BBA members she may be able to contributeto paperson the 3 key themes.
9. The Chair reminded the group that this is a short life group and due to the tight timescale all papers to be discussed at each meeting must be with LizFerguson for distribution to all members one week prior to the meeting.
10. It was proposed to have the minutes of each meeting distributed to the group by close of business on the Friday following the meetings. The draft minutes and supporting papers will be published on the AiB website the following Wednesday – the minutes would then be formally approved at the next meeting.
11. The Chair stated that all members of the group will have a key role in communicating the views of their particular sector and are actively encouraged to consult with their colleagues and/or membership on issues under discussion. All members of the group are being asked to contribute to the recommendations to be placed before the Minister.
12. Date of next meeting: 31 March 2010, 10:00, Room 109, Europa Building, Glasgow.
Elizabeth Ferguson
Protected Trust Deed Working Group Secretariat
12 March 2010
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