Military Police Complaints Commission
FYNES PUBLIC INTEREST HEARINGS
held pursuant to section 250.38(1) of the National Defence
Act, in the matter of file 2011004
LES AUDIENCES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIQUE SURE FYNES
tenues en vertu du paragraphe 250.38(1) de la Loi sure la
défense nationale pour le dossier 2011004
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
held at 270 Albert St., Ottawa, Ontario
on Thursday, May 24, 2012
jeudi, le 24 mai 2012
VOLUME 27
BEFORE:
Mr. Glenn Stannard Chairperson
Ms Raymonde Cléroux Registrar
APPEARANCES:
Mr. Mark Freiman Commission counsel
Mr. Rob Fairchild
Ms Genevieve Coutlée
Ms Dana Cernacek
Ms Elizabeth Richards For Sgt Jon Bigelow, MWO Ross Tourout,
Ms Korinda McLaine LCol Gilles Sansterre, WO Blair Hart, PO 2 Eric McLaughlin,
Sgt David Mitchell, Sgt Matthew Alan Ritco, Maj Daniel Dandurand,
Sgt Scott Shannon, LCol Brian Frei, LCol (ret’d) William H. Garrick
WO (ret’d) Sean Der Bonneteau, CWO (ret’d) Barry Watson
Col (ret’d) Michel W. Drapeau For Mr. Shaun Fynes
Ms Marie-Christine Fortin and Mrs. Sheila Fynes
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. © 2012
200 Elgin Street, Suite 1105 333 Bay Street, Suite 900
Ottawa, Ontario K2P 1L5 Toronto, Ontario M5H 2T4
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
(ii)
INDEX
PAGE
SWORN: COLONEL GERARD BLAIS 2
Examination-in-chief by Mr. Freiman 2
Cross-examination by Col Drapeau 115
SWORN: MAJOR PAULE POULIN 125
Examination-in-chief by Ms Coutlée 125
Cross-examination by Col Drapeau 209
(iii)
LIST OF EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
P92 Media Response Line dated 25 June 2009 1
P93 Media Response Line dated 19 June 2009 1
P-94 Witness Book Index, Colonel Gerard Blais 1
P-95 Witness Book Index, Major Paule Poulin 2
P-93 Revised Version of Media Response Line dated 19 June 2009 124
217
Ottawa, Ontario
Upon resuming on Thursday, May 24, 2012
at 9:35 a.m.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
MR. FAIRCHILD: Good morning, Mr. Chair. Before we start, we have to do our usual housekeeping with entering some exhibits.
We are going to start with a new document, Media Response Line dated 25 June 2009.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-92.
EXHIBIT NO. P-92: Media Response Line dated 25 June 2009
MR. FAIRCHILD: Our second exhibit is Media Response Line, dated 19 June 2009.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-93.
EXHIBIT NO. P-93: Media Response Line dated 19 June 2009
MR. FAIRCHILD: Then we have the Witness Book Index for Colonel Blais.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-94.
EXHIBIT NO. P-94: Witness Book Index, Colonel Gerard Blais
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
217
MR. FAIRCHILD: And finally the Witness Book Index for Major Poulin.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-95.
EXHIBIT NO. P-95: Witness Book Index, Major Paule Poulin
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Freiman?
MR. FREIMAN: The next witness is Colonel Gerard Blais.
SWORN: COLONEL GERARD BLAIS
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning and welcome, Colonel.
THE WITNESS: Good morning.
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. FREIMAN:
Q. Good morning, Colonel.
A. Good morning.
Q. You are currently the Director of Casualty Support Management and the Commanding Officer of integrated personal support centres across Canada. Is that correct?
A. I am.
Q. I wonder, by way of introduction, whether you could take us through your military career up to and including your current responsibilities?
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
217
A. I began my career at the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean and graduated. Upon graduation, I was posted with the Royal 22nd Regiment at the Citadel in Québec City.
From there I moved to a number of positions basically all the way to the west coast and back to Montréal, and finally, about 10 years ago, into Ottawa.
Q. Tell us a little bit about what is involved in being Director of Casualty Support Management, especially Commanding Officer of the integrated personnel support centres.
A. They are two separate functions, but they dovetail quite nicely.
On the side of the Director of Casualty Support Management, I am responsible for providing the policy guidance and interpretation on all of the services and policies relating to services for the ill and injured in the Canadian Forces and also for funeral and burial benefits.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
217
As the Commanding Officer of the Joint Personnel Support Unit and its series of integrated personnel support centres, I am responsible for their day-to-day activities and for ensuring that all of the ill and injured and the families of the fallen are treated to a common standard across the country.
Q. I hadn’t realized until you just told us that one of your responsibilities was with respect to the provision of funeral services for members of the military.
A. Not services but benefits.
Q. Benefits. What benefits are we talking about?
A. Funeral and burial. There are no financial benefits. It is the portion relating to the reimbursement for any of the expenses that a family may have relating to the funeral and burial and the family travel associated with that.
Q. Let me ask you a question I have asked a few other people and gotten various answers. Who owns the funeral when there is a military funeral? Who ultimately provides the direction and is capable of providing the direction?
A. The unit commanding officer of the deceased soldier.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
217
Q. Okay. What is the role of the family vis-à-vis the unit commanding officer of the deceased soldier?
A. Upon the death of a soldier, the family is assigned an assisting officer. They have undergone training to help them understand the benefits available and what the different procedures are going to be. They also carry a small handbook with them to guide them. They are there to provide comfort for the family and also to try to ease it’s a very large system and for a family that is not integrated into the military culture, the whole process can be quite complex. So the assisting officer is there to guide them through that process.
Q. In terms of the decision-making process for the details of the conduct of a funeral, who has that responsibility?
A. Again, that rests with the unit commanding officer.
Q. What role or input is reserved for the family and who in the family is designated to provide that input?
A. The family has a lot of input because of course we want to respect their wishes.
Q. Yes.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
217
A. The executor of the estate is the person responsible for making decisions.
Q. Is there any role for the military in deciding who the executor of the estate is?
A. That is normally clearly laid out in the individual’s will.
Q. Is there any role for the military in interpreting the status and validity of a soldier’s will?
A. Not with a military person per se. That would rest with our legal authorities.
Q. When you say legal authorities, are you talking about the military legal authorities or the civilian legal authorities?
A. The Judge Advocate General.
Q. If I understand correctly, from the military’s point of view insofar as you are concerned, the Judge Advocate General has the mandate to decide the validity of a will and the consequences that flow from the validity of a will.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
217
A. That is correct, because most of these things happen quite quickly after the death. In many cases, the funeral occurs as quickly as three days after the death, so therefore determinations have to be made very quickly in order for all the arrangements to be made.
Q. Are there any provisions for educating the families as to their entitlements vis-à-vis a funeral and vis-à-vis direction of the funeral?
A. Yes. That is the assisting officer’s responsibility. The assisting officer also is in contact with my staff in Ottawa who have the expertise in this area, and the assisting officer should be communicating with them in order to make sure that if he has any questions or if things seem to be a little sketchy, if he’s not sure, he can contact the staff at any time.
If I may add, we also have a 24/7 service for that. There is always someone from that section on their cellular phone to answer any questions 24/7.
Q. Bear with me for a minute. I am trying to conceptualize this question. It’s a difficult one for me.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
217
There may be instances where a soldier has a military will and also has a civilian will. In those cases, what arrangements are made to figure out which will has precedence and priority and which will should be followed?
A. Again, that is a legal determination.
Q. So that is sent to the Judge Advocate General.
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay, I think I understand what’s going on.
We have talked about the work that casualty support does. Can you tell me a little bit about what the other half is, the integrated personnel support centres?
A. Yes. Approximately three to four years ago the Canadian Forces realized, with the influx of casualties that we suffered in Afghanistan, that we didn’t have a standardized process across the country to ensure that everyone was treated the same and that our ill and injured and families of the fallen received the kind of treatment that they really deserved.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
217
In order to rectify that, one organization was stood up with branches across the country so that there would be a standardized methodology to provide services, whether it be modifying homes and vehicles for seriously ill and injured personnel. Once the assisting officer was done with his duties, then the personnel in the integrated personnel support centre, which also includes Veterans Affairs staff, would be there to deal with the families. There is a handover done. From that point, the family’s point of contact would become the centre.
Q. Returning to the role of the assisting officer, you have told us that an assisting officer is appointed for the family. Let’s parse that out just a little bit so we can follow it.
From your point of view, who is entitled to an assisting officer as part of the support that is given by the military?
A. Again, that is the commanding officer’s call. Each situation varies. In today’s society and the military is no different family dynamics are very often quite complex. Based on family circumstances, there may be as little as one assisting officer and in some cases there could be five or six.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
217
Q. In general, what is the relationship of the assisting officer vis-à-vis the family versus vis-à-vis the military?
What I mean is I am going to use phrasing that really isn’t appropriate, but I hope you understand what I mean. Who is the client? To whose best interest is the assisting officer directed?
A. Both. He is responsible for informing the family of the Canadian Forces policies and the benefits available to them. He is also a conduit for the family to the Canadian Forces to inform them of their wishes.
Q. Has any thought been given to the possibility of a conflict of interest arising where the families express one set of needs and the military has a different perspective on the situation than the family does?
A. I wouldn’t see that as a conflict of interest because the assisting officer is not the person who makes the ultimate decision. He simply informs. Either the commanding officer, a legal officer or someone from my staff, depending on what issue we are dealing with, is going to make the call.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
217
Q. Is there any role for the assisting officer as advocate on behalf of the family?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any role for the assisting officer as advocate on behalf of the military, that is, explaining to the family the military’s perspective.
A. Absolutely. That’s one of their big responsibilities.
Q. Again, do you see any potential for conflict as between the advocacy roles that an assisting officer might be called upon to play?
A. No, I don’t because it’s not supposed to be an adversarial position. The military’s interests are with providing as good a service as possible to the family for things to run very smoothly and, if at all possible, to grant the family’s wishes. Unfortunately in certain cases that doesn’t happen, but in the vast majority of cases, the process is very smooth. I would even say that most families have developed a very good relationship with their assisting officer.
Q. You told us that there is an expected lifespan of the relationship between the assisting officer and the family.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720
217
A. Yes.
Q. Can you explain what goes into that span of time? What sorts of duties does the assisting officer do? Why is six months the usual time when there will be a handoff?
A. We would actually like to see it even shorter than six months. The idea would be that as soon as possible after the funeral, the handover with the integrated personnel support centre happens for the simple reason that the assisting officer has a basic knowledge of benefits and the administration surrounding the whole process, whereas the staff in the centre, be it from Veterans Affairs or from the DND side, have a much more intricate knowledge and are better capable of dealing with that.
The assisting officer this is a secondary duty for him. He is assigned from the unit. The quicker we can return that person to his full military duties, it’s better for the organization and, again, it’s better for the family because they will be getting the expertise they need.