MINUTES OF THE CRMAP MEETING
HELD ON
THURSDAY 3 DECEMBER 2009
AT THE ROYAL AERONAUTICAL SOCIETY,
LONDON
Present
Captain Graham Cruse (GC) - easyJet Airlines - Chairman
Captain Paul Field (PF) - British Airways
Capt Rick Newson (RN) - CAA
Jeremy Butler (JB) - Consultant
Carey Edwards (CE) - LMQ
Captain Rob Calvert (RC) - Consultant
Captain Roger Benison (RB) -
Captain Kevin Lawrence (KL) - Bond Offshore Helicopters
Captain Dave Harrison (DH) - GAPAN/CTC
Captain Dave Thom (DT) - CTC
Captain Colin Budenberg (CB) - Thomson Airways
Captain Peter Shaw (PS) - CAA
Janice Fisher (JF) - CAA
1. Introduction and Welcome
1.1 The Chairman welcomed everyone to the meeting.
2. Apologies
2.1 Jane Neal Smith (JNS) - London Metropolitan University
Captain Chris Beaumont (CRB) - BALPA
Steve Jarvis (SJ) - Cranfield University
Captain Dave Riley (DR) - CAA
Captain Lucio Polo (LP) - CAA – Italy
Fleur Johnson (FJ) - Active Team Solutions
Captain Simon Henderson (SH) - Emirates
Nicole Svatek (NS) - Consultant
Rick Heybrook (RH) - Loftwork
2.2 GC added that SH has not attended recent meetings due to his aircraft fleet not currently flying to London. However Emirates are considering accrediting their own CRMI’s in accordance with UK procedures and he is keen to remain a member.
3. Minutes of the Meeting held on 3 September 2009
3.1 CE requested that the title Captain be removed. RB stated that he attended as an independent. A discussion took place as to whether company names should be included or not. They will be retained.
3.2 Item 5b regarding Chris Beaumont referred to CB. This should be CRB. CRB is now a full member.
3.3 Hazel Corcoran had now resigned due to change in management and work commitments.
3.4 DT is now a full member.
3.5 It was confirmed that the meeting to be held on 2 June 2010 would be at BALPA, Bath Road, Heathrow. Directions will be made available at the next meeting.
4. Matters Arising from the Minutes not on the Agenda
4.1 (Agenda 13 AOB). JB questioned the term ‘light regulation’. PS referred to the ICAO driven SMS processes, which advocate more self-regulation.
5. Applications to become Members of the Panel/Membership
5.1 JB had tendered his resignation and his letter was circulated. GC thanked him for his great contributions over a long period of time. This was seconded and supported by CE, CB and the Panel.
5.2 An application had been received from Captain Chris Mann of easyJet. As he was GC’s manager, this had been passed to PS and PF for consideration.
5.3 Laurie Benn from City of London Polytechnic College had also applied. He is a senior lecturer in aviation studies, member of Flight Safety and previous Hawker pilot. He is also an active member of the CRM Standing Group.
5.4 Consideration to be given to both applications in accordance with the categories in the ToRs. DH said this would be useful test of the ToRs.
6. Update on CAP 737 amendment and Standards Document 29 including industry comments on Version 4 and Re-accreditation of Non-Flight Crew CRMI’s.
6.1 PS stated that since Doc 29 Version 4 appeared on the website there had been some comment from industry. The current economic climate was causing problems as no operators were recruiting new pilots and therefore there were no initial courses being carried out. The CAA is able to offer alleviation in such cases subject to a suitable alternative proposal.
6.2 PS gave further information on the subject of accreditation for military personnel. A lot of their training is human factors based and similar to SMS processes. It was discussed that military personnel wanted the accreditation so that they could take it with them to a commercial operator when they leave the services. This appeared to be contrary to initial understanding that they wanted the accreditation to teach within the services. PF will witness their full Train the Trainer course. It was agreed that if military person left the services and joined an operator, they should spend a period of time before they will be accepted as a potential CRMI candidate.
6.3 There was a discussion about the re-accreditation of non-flight crew CRMI’s and it was suggested that RN use the Flight Crew Training Notice system to advise industry.
Action - RN.
6.4 Considerable discussion ensued about Doc 29, particularly with regard to accreditation being carried out on pilot initial courses only. PF felt that as the assessment was of knowledge as well as competency, an initial course was required in order to provide adequate assessment. There was discussion of the differences between recurrent and initial training and various dissenting views were raised. CB said that the content was the major factor however as joint training became more frequent, the practicalities of doing this on a recurrent course were limited. PS felt that the CAA had set the bar at a certain level but there was always room for manoeuvre. GC reminded the panel that there had been opportunity to comment and that comments should have, and still should, be sent to PF. Comments were made about terminology but PF noted that the wording had been taken from Part OPS. JB observed that the current method of emails asking for comment did not appear to have been effective and that a line by line assessment would be more productive. PF commented that issues were being raised due to the current economic climate rather than problems with the document procedures per se. PS summarised that Doc 29 was designed to improve standards and he was currently comfortable with that as the CAA still had the ability to alleviate if necessary. He was reluctant to issue V5 as it was a question of credibility. GC advised that it could be debated further in March but suggested we should not consider V5 for at least 18 months.
Action - CRMAP members to study Doc 29 before March meeting.
6.5 PS advised that if Doc 29 could be submitted to EASA as AMC material, it had the possibility of setting minimum standards across Europe.
6.6 PS referred to CAP 737 and said that whilst PF can co-ordinate its review, he is not responsible for it due to the level of work required. It is a CAA owned document. The focus in the CAA is with safety and human factors and our documents should support this. JF and FJ have carried out some work and DT offered assistance in the task. RC suggested that previous work carried out by Cranfield (Georgina Fletcher) should also be considered.
Action - PS to send research project to CRMAP members.
7. The future of the Short Guide
7.1 A general discussion took place and it was agreed that whilst it was confusing in some areas, it was a document that was still used. GC suggested we discuss this further at the next meeting.
8. AIC 27/2005
8.1 PS asked the panel to review this document and advise whether it should be retained, amended or withdrawn.
Action - CRMAP members to review.
9. CRMI Qualification Flow Chart
9.1 GC summarised that the concept of the chart was to assist with the detail of the accreditation process and CE and SJ have worked on this document. PS highlighted concerns over knowledge levels and said that industry needed to be made aware of the steps required to reach the appropriate level. RB suggested it could be used at the Conference but PS said it would need to be developed and robust before that could happen.
Action – CRMAP members to provide comment to SJ before next meeting.
Action - GC and PF to ask SJ to develop this chart and bring to next meeting.
Extra Item – Future of the Panel
GC asked PS to give his views on the future role of the panel. PS said that the panel had originally dealt with CRMI Ground and had progressed with Line and Simulators and has supplied the CAA with sound advice over the years. There is a new department in the CAA called Group Safety Services and it is aligned to 7 safety issues. It will look at processes to mitigate risk and develop a role for a human factors specialist. PS envisaged the panel may become an advisor to part of that group. ICAO is mandating SMS and human factors are an integral part of that. He stated his ‘ideal model’ would be where MOR closure covered human factors aligned to behavioural markers which would lead to modification of training.
GC said that the panel had turned round just over 2 years ago and become more focussed and confirmed that the panel should align itself with the CAA needs even if it means changing the profile. A general discussion ensued with varying opinions, some of which believed the panel still had valuable work to do and any possible involvement with human factors should go to the RAes Human Factors Group. GC summarised that it was early days and we should await further information.
10. May 2010 Conference Planning and Allocation of Tasks
10.1 After considerable discussion, the following plan was tentatively agreed. The dates of the Conference were discussed and it was agreed to move this one day earlier so it took place on a Thursday and not Friday. The date of Thursday 6 May was agreed with Wednesday 5 May for set up. PF stressed the need for objectives and gave a suggested outline which was well received. It was agreed to hold the March meeting at 1000 and concentrate on filming for the workshops. A mini meeting would be held mid afternoon for those that wished to attend. CAA should be able to provide video equipment and PS confirmed he had a video-editing suite and could undertake this work. It was decided to send an email in advance to all E’s to advise of the Conference, and follow this with a FODCOM with more details.
Action – JF to determine whether video equipment could be available.
Action – PS to coordinate email and FODCOM
10.2 Suggested Agenda for Conference
0930 Coffee and Registration
1000 CAA introduction and brief PS
1030 CRMAP introduction and brief GC
1100 Doc 29 PS
1130 Coffee
1145 Commence workshops
· Poor brief of CRMI DT
· Good brief of CRMI PF
· Facilitated discussion Chair
1230 Lunch
1330 Reconvene for workshops
· Good CRMI CB
· Facilitated discussion Chair
· Good debrief – pass PF
· Bad CRMI CE
· Facilitated discussion Chair
· Bad debrief DT
· Good debrief DT
1530 Comfort break
1545 TS10 JF
1600 Summary and Q and A
11. FAQs from Industry
11.1 GC asked that these be emailed for agenda items. One question referred to definition of commercial air transport experience. SJ will define this in the flow chart.
11.2 A discussion took place regarding a line CRMI revalidation and whether a CRMIE Ground could run the workshop bearing in mind that the I is roving and the E is sponsored by an operator.
12. AOB
None.
13. n/a
14. Date and Venue of Next Meeting
Thursday 4 March 2010 @ CAA @ 1000
Thursday 3 June meeting at Balpa
Thursday 2 September meeting at CAA
Thursday 2 December meeting at RAeS
The meeting closed at 1730.
Post Meeting Notes
As we know Jeremy tendered his resignation from the Panel at the meeting on the 3rd December. Subsequent discussions between Jeremy, Peter Shaw and the Graham Cruse have persuaded Jeremy to become the first Honorary Member. Jeremy is particularly interested in the future direction the Panel might take after Peter's overview at the meeting, so Jeremy will remain on our distribution list, be a resource the Panel can call on in the future, and have an open invitation to any of the meetings.
Appendix 1
CRMIE Conference
Welcome and Intro (Pete):
· Welcome, health and Safety, coffee breaks etc
· Describe Objectives of the day -
· To Clarify the role of the CRMIE within an organisation
· Introduce the recent changes to Doc 29
· Standardise the examining process
· Develop Examining skills focusing on briefing, debriefing and the use of the assessment framework and newly developed unacceptable performance markers
· Cover the common FAQs
· Etc
· etc
Chairman CRMAP (Graham)
· Format for the day
o Introduce idea that path to CRMI has four stages
o Emphasise that today is all about stage 4 i.e. assessing the candidate
o Changes to Doc 29 including new poor performance markers
o Practical sessions on preparing for the test, briefing the candidate, assessing the candidate, debriefing the candidate
o Completing the TS10
o FAQs
o Q and A session
Changes to Doc 29
· Doc 29 is an evolving ‘living’ document
· Describe key changes and the rationale for the changes in V4
Practical sessions and workshop
· Preparing for the test
· Briefing the Candidate
· Assessing the Candidate
· Delivering the result and debriefing the Candidate
· Completing the TS10
FAQs followed by Q and A session
Wash - up and Outro including key learning point