HEAT TREATING
JULY 2008
UNCONFIRMED MINUTES
JULY 21-24, 2008
OMNI WILLIAM PENN HOTEL
PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA
These minutes are not final until confirmed by the Task Group in writing or by vote at a subsequent meeting. Information herein does not constitute a communication or recommendation from the task Group and shall not be considered as such by any agency.
MONDAY, JULY 21, 2008 – CLOSED SESSION
1.0 OPENING COMMENTS
1.1 Call to Order/Quorum Check
The meeting was called to order by Chair Doug Matson. A Quorum was established.
ATTENDANCE
User Members Present (43 Prime Members):
Name / CompanySilvia / Baeza / Vought Aircraft
Shaun / Brewin / Rolls-Royce Plc
Frank / Brungs / MTU Aero Engines
Giuseppe / Campanile / Alenia Aeronautica
Jayne / Chikola / Lockheed Martin
Mark / Cook / Eaton Aerospace
Nerea / Cuevas / ITP
David / Damasauskas / Spirit Aerosystems
Chris / Davison / Spirit Aerosystems
Marsha / Davison / Lockheed Martin
Martin / Day / Honeywell Aerospace
Peter / Edwards / Airbus
Mark / Emerson / Rolls-Royce Corp
Robert / Faticanti / Textron Systems Corp
Michael / Fay / Raytheon Corp
Mike / Gallagher / Lockheed Martin
Mark / Greite / Rockwell Collins
Jeff / Gugel / United Space Alliance
Eddie / Hofer / Rockwell Collins
Leslie / Hohn / Parker Aerospace
Bernard / Hoenemann / Airbus SAS
Andrew / Hopkins / BAE Systems
Dave / Isenberg / Parker Aerospace
Jeff / Koss / The Boeing Company
Serge / Labbe / Heroux – Devtek, Inc.
Rachel / Mace / Honeywell Aerospace
Doug / Matson / The Boeing Company
User Voting Member Present (Continued):
Name / CompanyJean / Moncayo / United Space Alliance
Tom / Murphy / Sikorsky Aircraft
Mitch / Nelson / Cessna Aircraft Company
Tom / Norris / Goodrich Corporation
Eddy / Pham / Northrop Grumman
K.T. / Quadar / The Boeing Company
Chris / Reilly / Hamilton Sundstrand
Paul / Slater / Rockwell Collins
Andy / Snow / Hawker Beechcraft
David / Soong / Hamilton Sundstrand
William / Stewart / Bombardier
Kathy / Storie / United Space Alliance
Marc / Taillandier / Eurocopter
Jeff / Thyssen / GE Aviation
Louis / Tremblay / Bombardier
Cyril / Vernault / SAFRAN Group
Tom / Wilson / Bombardier, Inc.
Other Participants/Members (73 Other Participants/Members):
Name / CompanyAbdul / Admani / Arrow Gear
Zubair / Alam / Exactatherm LTD
Derek / Alty / Bodycote Thermal Processing UK
Andrew / Bassett / Conrad Kacsik Instrument Systems
David / Bowes / Pressure Technology
Griff / Braddock / Braddock Metallurgical
Mike / Brandt / Alcoa
Mark / Brown / Braddock Metallurgical
Steven / Chang / Avibank Manufacturing Inc
Wichian / Charvlenk / Alcoa Fastening Systems
Richard / Chamielewsky / The Barden Corporation
Martin / Christiansen / Haynes International
Matthew / Crill / ATK Aerospace Structures
Robert / Cvetichan / American Brazing
Todd / Eckhart / Carpenter Technology
Robert / Elliott / MTI (Metal Treating Institute)
Paul / Elliott / GKN Aerospace
Robert / Ferry / FPM Heat Treating
Susan / Frailey / Braddock Metallurgical, Inc.
Sarah / Fuqua / Kearfott Corp Motion Systems Div.
Michael / Gaspers / FPM Heat Treating
George / Gieger / Braddock Metallurgical, Inc.
Lillian / Guo / Alcoa Fastening Systems
Harry / Halliburton / Jorgensen Forge
Gerald / Harvey / Triumph Group
Chad / Haugh / Modern Industries, Inc.
James / Hill / Carpenter Technology
Other Participants/Members (Continued):
Name / CompanyRobert / Hoff / Timken
Steve / Hutchison / Braddock Metallurgical Aerospace Services
Ninan / Idiculla / Paulo Products
Ed / Jamieson / Bodycote
Jacob / Kacsik / Conrad Kacsik Instrument Systems
Zia / Karim / Heat Treat Professionals
Mark / Kenar / MPC Products Corp
James / Kirsch / MPC Products Corp
Alexander / Klyuch / Blades Technology Ltd
Jon / Kos / Northstar Aerospace Canada
John / Kunkle / Alcoa Howmet
Jeremy / Latham / Ferco Group
Bob / Lehnen / Bodycote
Gilles / Leroy / Aubert & Duval
Christopher / Miller / Conrad Kacsik Instrument Systems
Nick / Miscione / L-3 MAS – Canada
Mike / Moffit / Solar Atmospheres
Sal / Monforti / MPC Products Corp
Parker / Moore / Kearfott Corp Motion Systems Div
Michelleni / Moraga / Goodrich Aerostructures
Mike / Moyer / Solar Atmospheres
Michael / Niedzinski / Alcan Aerospace
Jesse / Norris / Stack Metallurgical Services Inc
Jim / Oakes / Super Systems Inc
Hideyoshi / Okubo / Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd
Robert / Palermo / HTG Thermal Treatment Center
Rozalia / Papp / Air Liquide
Joyce / Paugh / Middle River Aircraft Systems
Ron / Perkins / Pako Inc
Steve / Prout / American Brazing
William / Rae / CAV Aerospace
Martin / Reicher / Bohler Schiedetechnik GmbH & Co KG
Cermit / Rickey / Jorgensen Forge
Elena / Ritoli / Metallurgical Processing Inc
Frank / Romero / ITWCIP
James / Rose / Carpenter Technology
Robert / Sartori / Bodycote
Steve / Shea / Scarrott Metallurgical Company
David / Shuman / The Barden Corporation
Jon / Steltenpohl / Paulo Products
Jose / Velazquez / Quality Heat Treating Inc
Wilfried / Weber / PFW Aerospace AG
Kevin / Winslow / Modern Industries Inc
Peter / Wong / Goodrich Aerostructures
David / Wootton / Lisi Aerospace
PRI Staff (5 Members):
Jerry / Aston / PRI Staff Engineer
Marcel / Cuperman / PRI Staff Engineer
Rob / Hoeth / PRI Staff Engineer
Anne / Allen / PRI Consultant
Lisa / Zajacs / PRI Committee Service Representative
1.2 HEAT TREATING TUTORIAL
The Heat Treating Task Group tutorial was given for the benefit of new Task Group attendees. The tutorial gave details of the Nadcap structure, Nadcap process, Task Group structure, Task Group history and topics that the Task Group is working on.
1.3 EC-LR/R (EXPORT CONTROL-LICENSE REQUIRED / RESTRICTED)
There have been many changes recently regarding the understanding of EC-LR/R which affects the way Auditors carry out audits. A debriefing of the current understanding was given to the Task Group by Doug Matson and Marcel Cuperman.
The current understanding is that unrestricted USA Auditors can review EC-LR/R work at USA based Suppliers, Unrestricted Auditors can not.
Restricted or Unrestricted Auditors can not review EC-LR/R parts outside the USA. Restricted or Unrestricted Auditors can not review non USA military work, as this now falls under the EC-LR/R definitions.
As an aid to the Auditors an “(EC)” has been added to the AC7102, and AC7102/1 checklists against the job audit questions that can not be filled in eAuditNet.
The Task Group was informed that there are some Suppliers who only carry out EC-LR/R work and are outside the USA can not be audited at the present time.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineers are to provide a list of those suppliers who cannot be audited due to EC-LR/R.
The Task Group will be further updated on the EC-LR/R issue at the next Nadcap meeting.
1.4 AUDITOR CONSISTENCY
The SE’s have been collecting data since the last meeting on where a Suppliers latest audit deviates from the previous audit by more that +/-5 NCRs. When this occurs the reason why is investigated. By analyzing the data it was hoped that variation in Auditor performance would highlighted. It was agreed that the SE’s will continue to collect this data, and the data would be analyzed for the next meeting.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineers to continue to collect data where audit NCR deviation of +/- 5 NCRs and provide the analysis at the next meeting.
1.5 SUPPLIER SURVEY
Suppliers have been receiving a survey at the end of the audit which asks questions on how the Auditor performed the audit. The results have been analyzed and were presented to the Task Group.
The results show that the relative health of the system for Auditor consistency looks good. Most of the audits seem to be carried out to good auditing practice.
A question asked to the suppliers was ‘did the Auditor show consistency with the previous audit’. The spilt was 90/10 showing good consistency.
The Survey results were shown to the Auditor who thought that some of the questions were too vague. A sub-team was set up to review the survey and suggest changes for the next meeting.
Sub-team – Rachel Mace, Tom Norris, Mark Emerson, Doug Matson.
ACTION ITEM: see Tuesday open meeting.
1.6 HOT ISOSTATIC PRESSING CHECKLIST
The sub-team has worked on creating a HIP checklist. It was agreed at the meeting that the HIP checklist would proceed to Task Group ballot.
Decisions that still need to be made are:
1) For a HIP facility only would AC7102 need to be carried out.
2) Would the HIP approval require a Job audit to be completed?
Staff Engineers to find out how to add scopes and checklist to the Heat Treatment Task group.
ACTION ITEM: HIP checklist to be balloted.
1.7 ASTM E18-08a
The issue ASTM E18 – 07 could not be complied to, and ASTM E18-05 continued to be used. The ASTM E18-08a issues are to be reviewed in the open meeting to see if the modifications allow this issue to be used.
This item tabled until open meeting.
1.8 TASK GROUP HELP LINE
During Auditor Training, the Auditors asked if there was a way that they could talk to the Primes if they have a problem with the Prime specifications during an audit. Doug Matson recommended that PRI set up a closed internet chat room for Auditors, SE’s, and TG Members. This could be used to ask and answer technical questions.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineers to arrange meeting with management and Doug Matson to review if this could be set up. Answer to be reported back at next meeting.
1.9 NON SUSTAINING NCR’S
The Auditors have asked if there is still a Task Group requirement that if two or more non sustaining NCRs are written during an audit, if another NCR was to be written against the Suppliers Quality System.
The Task Group again voted on this and it was voted to keep the requirement.
ACTION ITEN: Staff Engineers are to issue an Auditor Advisory clarifying the above.
2.0 NMC METRICS
See the attached presentation:
The metrics shows that the Heat Treat Task Group is in good health. The only area of concern is that the number of Auditors has not reach 130% capacity. USA Auditors are needed. PRI is working to hire more Auditors.
2.1 STAFF ENGINEER DELEGATION
The Staff Engineers presented their tracking of closing audits to the Task Group. The following decisions were made:
Jerry Aston, Marcel Cuperman, Anne Allen maintained full delegation.
Rob Hoeth was delegated to close minor NCRs.
A debriefing of the revised delegation rules and tracking procedure was given to the Task Group. The Task Group agreed that delegation Tracking will be against NCRs only.
2.2 MOU FASTENERS
The Heat Treating Task Group has not received any further feedback from the Fastener Task Group.
2.3 LAPSED ACCREDITATION
The list of Suppliers whose accreditation would lapse or potentially lapse was presented to the Task Group. The Task Group reviewed the list and determined which companies would be eligible for extensions and what the length of the extensions would be.
The Task Group asked that the method of determining extensions for accreditation be documented for future consistency, and requested that Staff Engineer propose the rules for discussion at the next meeting.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineers to propose rules for applying extensions to Supplier accreditation.
2.4 S-FRM-05
S-frm-05 defines the scope of an audit, and is the record that a Supplier is Nadcap approved to. At the present time the scope includes some but not all Industry specifications (i.e. AMS). As the current AC checklists do not have questions to cover all the industry specification questions, a discussion was held by the Task Group on whether industry specifications should be removed from the scope.
A few Primes are using the AMS references to maintain the Supplier approval, so even though the checklist questions do not specifically cover the AMS specifications they would like the references to remain.
There are two Primes who are using the AMS references to maintain the Supplier approval, so even though the checklist questions do not specifically cover the AMS specifications they would like the references to remain.
A vote of the task Group was taken and it was agreed to leave the S-frm-05 as it is.
2.5 SUPPLIER FAILURE APPEALS PROCESS
The sub-team reviewed the methods being used by the Staff Engineers to carry out the appeals process when requested by a Supplier when an audit has failed.
The Presentation below was given.
The two proposed methods are given below with the Task Group voting to use proposal 2.
i.e.
Proposal 1 / Proposal 2SE liaises with the Supplier to obtain from the Supplier the technical reasons to support the appeal. / SE liaises with the Supplier to obtain from the Supplier the technical reasons to support the appeal.
SE forwards the information from the Supplier to the TG for review, and decision on the appeal. E-mail responses received. SE informs the Supplier of the TG decision / SE liaises with the Chair to set up Ad Hoc meeting to review the appeal. Supplier can request that he can attend meeting.
Supplier can request to attend the appeal as per NOP-001. Ad Hoc meeting arranged with TG and Supplier. / SE forwards Supplier information to the TG before the meeting for review.
Supplier presents their case. Decision made on the appeal by TG. / Supplier presents their case. Decision made on the appeal by the TG.
SE informs Supplier of the TG decision. / SE informs the Supplier of the TG decision.
This item has been elevated to the Standardization Committee for a standard policy for dealing with appeals.