Christchurch Replacement District Plan
PRIVATE PLAN CHANGE:
MAIL (STage 2)
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Heard at: Christchurch Plan Independent Hearing Venue
348 Manchester Street, Christchurch
Date: Commenced 16 September 2015
Hearing Panel: Judge John Hassan
Sarah Dawson
John Illingsworth
APPEARANCES
DAY 2 – 17 SEPTEMBER 2015
<FRASER JAMES COLEGRAVE, sworn [10.02 am] 229
<EXAMINATION BY MR CHRISTENSEN [10.02 am] 230
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WINCHESTER [10.05 am] 231
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WHITE [10.26 am] 242
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.49 am] 254
<MARTIN JAMES WINDER, sworn [10.49 am] 255
<EXAMINATION BY MR CHRISTENSEN [10.49 am] 256
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WINCHESTER [10.54 am] 258
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS APPLEYARD [11.09 am] 265
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CHRISTENSEN [11.36 am] 278
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.41 am] 280
<STEPHEN GORDON CHILES, affirmed [11.53 am] 281
<EXAMINATION BY MR CHRISTENSEN [11.53 am] 282
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS APPLEYARD [11.54 am] 282
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CHAPMAN [12.03 pm] 287
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.24 pm] 296
<ANDREW JAMES EMILE HALL, sworn [12.25 pm] 297
<EXAMINATION BY MR CHRISTENSEN [12.25 pm] 298
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.29 pm] 300
<STEPHEN JOHN DOUGLAS, sworn [12.29 pm] 301
<EXAMINATION BY MR CHRISTENSEN [12.29 pm] 302
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.38 pm] 305
<ANDREW DAVID CARR, affirmed [12.38 pm] 306
<EXAMINATION BY MR CHRISTENSEN [12.38 pm] 307
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ALLEN [12.52 pm] 313
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS APPLEYARD [2.16 pm] 322
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WINCHESTER [2.26 pm] 328
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CHAPMAN [2.28 pm] 329
<FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ALLEN [3.10 pm] 346
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CHRISTENSEN [3.15 pm] 349
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.17 pm] 350
<ANTHONY THOMAS PENNY, affirmed [3.19 pm] 353
<EXAMINATION BY MR CHAPMAN [3.20 pm] 354
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS APPLEYARD [3.31 pm] 358
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CHAPMAN [3.38 pm] 361
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY PROFESSOR BAGCHI [3.45 pm] 364
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CHRISTENSEN [3.56 pm] 368
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [4.03 pm] 373
EXHIBITS
EXHIBIT #D – Guide to Traffic Management Part 3: Traffic Studies and
Analysis 309
EXHIBIT #E – Guide to Road Design - Part 4A: Unsignalled and Signalised
Intersections 309
EXHIBIT #F – Transport Table 313
Page 410
DAY 2 – 17 SEPTEMBER 2015
[10.00 am]
JUDGE HASSAN: Good morning everyone. MrChristensen, just an initial question, Commissioner Illingsworth has a request of you to arrange for MrCarr to just provide a little bit more information on the AUSTROADS document but I will let him explain, it is not my bedtime reading.
MR ILLINGSWORTH: Okay, so in the appendix to MrCarr’s evidence there is three tables A1 to A3 and they reference an AUSTROAD standard, I think it is for turning delay times, referenced A to F, could we have a copy of that standard for that table?
MR CHRISTENSEN: Now, we provided you with something yesterday.
JUDGE HASSAN: Yes, you did.
MR ILLINGSWORTH: That is sight lines for intersections which is okay but I would just like to be able to have a look at that table because they are referenced A to F but I am not sure exactly what the meaning of each of those standards is.
MR CHRISTENSEN: Certainly I can get a copy.
JUDGE HASSAN: I just thought I would let you know now. If you are not sure about anything then just ask again but I thought I would ask you now so you can have it ready for Mr Carr when he comes. It may be useful for him for instance to have enough sort of extract copies for everyone at that point and then Commissioner Illingsworth can question about it as he wishes.
MR CHRISTENSEN: All right, thank you.
JUDGE HASSAN: All right, so you are going to call, MrColegrave.
MR CHRISTENSEN: Mr Colegrave?
FRASER JAMES COLEGRAVE, sworn [10.02 am]
<EXAMINATION BY MR CHRISTENSEN [10.02 am]
MR CHRISTENSEN: Please confirm that your full name is Fraser James Colegrave?
MR COLEGRAVE: Correct.
MR CHRISTENSEN: And that you have the experience and qualifications set out in your statement of evidence?
MR COLEGRAVE: Correct.
MR CHRISTENSEN: MrColegrave, you have provided two statements of evidence, the first 26August and a rebuttal statement dated 8September, do you have any additions or amendments to those statements?
MR COLEGRAVE: No.
MR CHRISTENSEN: So could you please confirm that they are true and correct to the best of your knowledge?
MR COLEGRAVE: Yes, they are.
MR CHRISTENSEN: You have prepared a short summary statement, proceed with that and then answer any questions please.
MR COLEGRAVE: Thank you. My evidence addresses the potential adverse effects of retail activity on the MAIL site. It summarised the findings of my 2013 report which incorporated a range of scenario analyses based on my Christchurch Retail Gravity Model. This model has been used to gain planning permission for a wide range of retail developments across the country and was also used by the Council in its planning for North Halswell.
In summary my analysis shows that the impact on other centres would be minor and would certainly not give rise to any significant flow on effects. One of the main reasons for this is that impacts would be spread across several centres that are a similar distance away causing effects to be widely dispersed.
My evidence also considered the cumulative effects of the MAIL development in combination with other likely retail developments. Again it concluded that impacts will be minor mainly because predicted growth in supply will be met by ongoing increases in demand thus helping to keep the market in equilibrium.
My evidence also considered the submissions and evidence of other parties particularly the evidence of MrHeath for the Council. In short I disagree with Mr Heath’s analysis of city retail supply and demand, in particular I believe that he has underestimated demand and overestimated supply.
I also note that MrHeath has never actually studied the capacity for retail development in existing centres yet his conclusions hinge strongly on the belief that the existing centre network has adequate capacity to meet future demand.
Finally my evidence considered potential impacts on urban form particularly potential impacts on shopping related travel demand. Using two independent datasets I show that the majority of shopping trips are purposely timed to occur away from peak travel times and therefore are not major contributors to peak traffic congestion. Accordingly I concluded that the urban form impacts in terms of traffic movements will be minor. In summary I continue to support the MAIL development from an economic perspective.
JUDGE HASSAN: Thank you. MrWinchester?
MR WINCHESTER: Thank you. Sir, just before I commence with MrColegrave, just looking at the cross-examination list I have revised my views in terms of what happened yesterday and wonder if I could just give some notice of withdrawal, sir.
JUDGE HASSAN: Yes, thank you.
MR WINCHESTER: MrCarr this afternoon, in terms of the traffic evidence, I simply rely on Mr Falconer’s evidence there. Likewise there is no need to address MrPenny nor MrClark tomorrow morning for the Crown.
JUDGE HASSAN: All right.
MR WINCHESTER: And also I have given notice to my friend, MrMinhinnick, that MrPhillips tomorrow afternoon for Avon Hotel and Andrew Centre I won’t be cross-examining him, and again there is the potential there will be further withdrawals tomorrow as the issues become clearer.
JUDGE HASSAN: All right, thanks very much, MrWinchester.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WINCHESTER [10.05 am]
MR WINCHESTER: Thank you. Good morning, MrColegrave.
MR COLEGRAVE: Good morning, sir.
MR WINCHESTER: Now, in preparing your evidence have you looked at or read the Regional Policy Statement chapter6 in any detail?
MR COLEGRAVE: I read it last year, I haven’t read it in detail, no.
MR WINCHESTER: And the same for the Land Use Recovery Plan and its relevant provisions?
MR COLEGRAVE: Yes, I helped peer review it for the City Council.
MR WINCHESTER: Thank you. Now, you know, don’t you, that the MAIL site is not identified as a centre in any relevant planning document that relates to Christchurch?
MR COLEGRAVE: Correct.
MR WINCHESTER: You also know that the land is identified in the Land Use Recovery Plan for industrial use?
MR COLEGRAVE: Yes, it is a greenfield priority area, yes.
MR WINCHESTER: The proposal we have got before us is for an Industrial Park zoning, you understand that?
MR COLEGRAVE: Yes.
MR WINCHESTER: And you understand that the policy purpose of that Industrial Park zone is to accommodate high technology industry and high amenity industry?
MR COLEGRAVE: Yes.
MR WINCHESTER: You are also aware, aren’t you, MrColegrave, that in terms of the planning documents, the higher order documents the RPS, the LURP and indeed the strategic directions chapter, they actively discourage the proliferation of retail activity outside centres, don’t they?
MR COLEGRAVE: I think they encourage activity in centres, I don’t know if they necessarily have corollary like you have stated it.
MR WINCHESTER: Well, you would agree though that they actively discourage retail activity on industrial land, don’t they?
MR COLEGRAVE: Yes.
MR WINCHESTER: In terms of retail provisions though what MAIL is proposing in terms of the composition and quantum of retail, who amongst MAIL’s expert witnesses has prepared a section32 analysis of whether that is the most appropriate?
MR COLEGRAVE: I am not sure, sorry.
JUDGE HASSAN: Maybe that is a matter for submission, MrWinchester.
MR WINCHESTER: Yes, all right. You understand what a section32 analysis is, don’t you?
MR COLEGRAVE: Yes.
MR WINCHESTER: Have you turned your mind to section32 at all?
MR COLEGRAVE: No, I have just done a retail distribution analysis.
MR WINCHESTER: Right. Now, in the stage1 commercial and industrial hearing, MrColegrave, it is correct, isn’t it, that you criticised MrHeath’s retail capacity analysis on the basis that he hadn’t taken into account building and hardware suppliers, do you recall that?
MR COLEGRAVE: That wasn’t really the thrust of it, no.
MR WINCHESTER: But that was a criticism of yours, wasn’t it?
MR COLEGRAVE: We had a disagreement about whether it should be included or not, yes.
MR WINCHESTER: You accept, don’t you, that building and hardware suppliers in terms of the identification of retail are excluded from that, don’t you?
MR COLEGRAVE: Yes.
MR WINCHESTER: And now in this hearing you are criticising MrHeath’s retail capacity analysis on another basis and you say that he has underestimated demand and overestimated supply, that is what you have said in - - -
MR COLEGRAVE: Those were the same criticisms I made last time.
MR WINCHESTER: I see, right-o. And is it at paragraph6.1 and 6.2 of your evidence-in-chief that you outline why you say he is wrong or that MrHeath’s estimates are inaccurate or unreliable?
MR COLEGRAVE: Yes.
MR WINCHESTER: In terms of capacity analysis, another city-wide capacity analysis, where is yours?
MR COLEGRAVE: It is similar to MrHeath, neither of us have done a formal study.
MR WINCHESTER: Yes, but where is your analysis? MrHeath has done an analysis and he has provided - - -
MR COLEGRAVE: Of capacity.
MR WINCHESTER: Yes, and he has provided - - -
MR COLEGRAVE: Well, in cross-examination several times he hasn’t - - -
[10.10 am]
JUDGE HASSAN: Just a pause, this is going to work well if we wait for each other, question/answer, so could you repeat the question please, MrWinchester.
MR WINCHESTER: Thank you, sir. MrHeath in his stage1 commercial and industrial evidence outlined the analysis he had undertaken, didn’t he, for the entire city?
MR COLEGRAVE: No, he didn’t, I have read the transcript several times and I made this comment last time I appeared. I can even take you to the part of the transcript if you like and he very clearly said he is not an engineer, he hasn’t quantified it, he really doesn’t know what the capacity is in the existing centre network. I think that has clearly been stated.
MR WINCHESTER: I see. In terms of your competing analysis where you say the capacity is overestimated, where is that?
MR COLEGRAVE: Yes, so basically MrHeath’s conclusions are all predicated on the assumption that there is existing capacity in the network. All I am saying is that that hasn’t been proven and based on my knowledge of the centre network I don’t believe it has anything like the capacity he thinks it has.
MR WINCHESTER: All right. And you say based on your knowledge of the centres network, what is the basis for your knowledge?
MR COLEGRAVE: I have been studying the centres network here for five years, I have visited every centre several times. I have done desktop studies, on the ground studies, I have visited each site, looked at its physical layout, zoning, all of those things.
MR WINCHESTER: And didn’t you think because you are appearing for a number of retail proponents in this process, if you have done the work and you have been throughout the city it would be helpful to the Panel to actually outline in detail what your analysis is to support your conclusions?
MR COLEGRAVE: In every brief of evidence, which themselves have been brief, I have stated several times that I have done those visits and talked about the conclusions I formed on the basis of that knowledge.
MR WINCHESTER: Is it a general feeling that you get when you visit these centres or do you take measurements, what do you do?
MR COLEGRAVE: I write down details about the look and the feel of it, the parking, the store mix, the type of people that are there, the sort of things that you would expect of a health centre check.
MR WINCHESTER: Right. So this is I think somewhere in your evidence, 6.4, you say you visited the city’s network of centres numerous times and found them all in very good health. So was that a gut feel?
MR COLEGRAVE: No, so key metrics of things, I mean vacancy is probably the most pertinent metric that we all use so I have measured the vacancy rates and so on as I went.
MR WINCHESTER: In terms of how the planning rules operate have you actually done an analysis of what the planning rules enable in terms of the growth and development of existing centres?
MR COLEGRAVE: I am not a planner, sorry.
MR WINCHESTER: Now, paragraph6.8 of your evidence, you agree with MrHeath’s statement in terms of the retail and the focus of the retail at the MAIL site is that it is going to be on convenience retailing?