Community Primary School
OVERDALESCHOOL
CONSULTATION MEETINGS
STAFF/GOVERNORS
25 FEBRUARY 2008
Name / Title / InitialsLynda Richardson / Children’s Services Manager, Quality Assurance / LR
Mike Marshall / Children’s Services Manager Quality assurance (Inclusion) / MM
Viv Murray / Children’s Services Director, Universal services / VM
Jason Woodruff / Head of Human Resources / HR
Victoria Meredith (governor’s meeting) / Corporate Legal Adviser / VM
Clare Cook / Education Change Partner / CC
Norma Turner / SEN Officer / NT
Mike Townson / Project Officer / MT
Helen Hodges / Research Officer and scribe / HH
Lynne Bennett / School Organisation Officer and scribe / LB
Staff Meeting 4.00pm
1.Introduction by Lynda Richardson.
2.Presentation:Lynda Richardson and Mike Marshall
School competition information and anticipated timeline:Lynne Bennett
3.Q & A
Question/commentIs it going to be two form entry/420 places plus extra provision for SEN?
MM
Yes, the figures are for 2 form entry plus designated special provision, meaning 420 places plus 30 full time equivalent places (with Statements) for designated special provision, with capacity for an additional 10 (making 40) children without statements.
Question/comment
Projections for 2009/10 suggest an intake of 60 pupils, therefore Reception will be full. How will any additional SEN pupils be accommodated? How would you integrate them or would you have to turn them away?
If the projections are wrong what will happen to the pupils in 2009/10?
Answer
MM
There will be additional physical space in the school for the designated special provision. It’s common within schools to group pupils e.g. Reception and Year 1. Pupils in the mainstream classes will also benefit from the designated special provision as well as the pupils with statements of SEN who attend the designated special provision being able to benefit from integration alongside their mainstream peers, in certain lessons, and as appropriate to their developing needs.
Question/comment
If there are 30 pupils in the class and 1 needs additional support what will happen?
Answer
MM
There may be a child who would benefit from additional support and may dip in and out of certain parts of the curriculum e.g. art, music, PE. There is the potential for 30+ at some times in a class and there may be times when there will be less than 30.
Remember that the children will be coming from across the northern area, and their integration may be in another mainstream school but they would access the designated provision in this school.
All schools will be expected to support pupils with SEN, with and without Statements, just as they do now.
LR
Pupils are often combined but the idea is that the integration would be appropriate to that child’s needs. For example in Springfield and The Elms there are pupils who take part in certain elements within mainstream school.
Question/comment
I thought the legal number of children in a class is 30. How would this work withthe admissions policy?
MM
The Admissions Code of Practice determines what the admissions process is, but a Statement of Special Educational Needs overrides all admissions policies, that is, a child who has a statement of SEN naming the school can be admitted even if the year group is full to the admission number. This is the case even where infant class size regulations normally require a limit of 30 children to one qualified teacher.
On further investigation, if children are dipping in and out of infant classes, for integration purposes, and are not on the permanent roll of the class, then this is allowed over the 30 limit, and within reason (i.e. we would not want to have several children in addition to the 30 limit).
A child with a statement can be placed on the roll of an infant class (not for purposes of integration but as a full time member of the class), over the 30 limit, for one year, however, if this is still the case the following year, as the numbers follow through to the next year, then additional staffing arrangements must be put in place.
Question/comment
What is happening in other Kirkby schools?
LR
There will be an update in the Future Schooling document to be published later this year and this may bring about more changes.
Question/comment
In terms of the Children’s Centre, will it have separate governance or will it be part of the school?
VM
Children’s Centres have separate governance as part of an area model.
Question/comment
Is the LA obliged to hold a competition?
LR
Yes, it came out of the Education and Inspections Act with the principle that local authorities are now commissioners of school places.
The legislation came in in May 2007. It is a new government policy and there will be wider involvement. As local authorities are now commissioners of places we want the best people to deliver the service.
The Cabinet members will decide if we will join the competition. If we are in the competition we can’t judge it, but if we’re not in the competition we can make the decision on who wins the bid.
Comment
So if it’s the Cabinet members who decide whether the authority enters the competition, we need to let elected members know our views about the competition.
Question/comment
If the council don’t bid are we going to have a new employer?
JW
If we do submit a successful bid we’ll go down the same route we’ve used before, by using the redeployment policy, and we’ll take a lot of time to work with staff. It won’t be until 2010 and by then your career may be different to how it is now. You may want different things from your career, but we’ll help you to get where you want to be. We’ll work with you on a one to one basis but we won’t be able to do that until the competition decision is made.
The redeployment policy has been in place for two years now and we’re using it in the secondary BSF sector with secondary school staff. Part of the redeployment policy includes elements of pay protection, voluntary redundancy etc.
Wecan advise you individually once the decision is made.
Question/comment
Could we be assimilated into the jobs?
JW
If an external provider wins the bid we would have a situation where the Transfer of Undertakings for the Protection of Employees (TUPE) regulations applies. The transfer of undertaking would be the education of the children. The new employer will have to consider that three schools will be merging into one so there could be assimilation. This would need to be considered in relation to job families. There is also a TUPE appeals procedure.
If TUPE applies and you don’t want to transfer to the new employer we would look to the redeployment policy.
Question/comment
Is there a competition for Greengates?
LR
Greengates doesn’t need to go to competition as it’s not a new school.
Question/comment
What concerns me is my pension. What will happen?
JW
That will depend on the employer but there is provision within TUPE in that the new employer will have to determine how they will support staff.
In the secondary BSF sector, RM and Balfour Beatty have determined how they will contribute to employees’ pensions.
Q
So someone could take over the pensions?
JW
Yes
Question/comment
What will the non-teaching staffing levels be?
JW
What we know is the staff levels in place now, but the staffing structure will be down to the new employer. Until the competition is decided we won’t know that.
Question/comment
What competitions have there been?
LB
There have been a couple of competitions, in Haringey and Southampton but these were for secondary schools. In Haringey there were 3 external bids and one from the Local Authority for a community school, and the schools Adjudicator decided in favour of the local authority. In Southampton there were two competitions but the local authority did not submit a bid and the council awarded the competitions to a firm called Oasis.
There is a primary competition underway in Salford, where there were no external bids, just one from the council. This was referred to the Schools Adjudicator and they are expecting a decision on that this week.
Question/comment
Can we be part of the bid, what I mean is we need to let everyone know and make representation to elected members and make our views known to the Cabinet that we want the local authority to submit a bid.
LR
Any responses will form inform the feedback that goes to Cabinet.
Question/comment
Should we contact our unions?
LR
Yes, that’s up to you but there will be meetings with the unions when we get to that stage.
JW
I’m obviously on the management side but we’ve got a meeting with unions; Unison, T & G etc on 11 March. Clearly the unions know what is happening
Question/comment
In the projections, is there a projection for staffing?
LR
The answer at the moment is no. We’re consulting on the proposal to establish a new school and until the decision is made…..
Question/comment
What happens if someone else wins the tender?
JW
There will be elements of undertaking under TUPE, but it might not be for all staff, so we would look to redeploy staff, and we’ve got a long lead in time to do that.
If people want to take redundancy they may be able to do so, so hopefully everyone will get jobs, either through the external provider or through redeployment in the Council.
In BSF, in the next couple of years, we may get to the stage when we have to hold vacancies across the borough. Potentially it could happen in the primary sector that we’ll get to a point where we have a vacancy freeze across the borough. There will be strategic decisions taken in consultation with the unions over the next few years.
Question/comment
Is it down to the local authority to find us a job?
JW
There is a responsibility, but there is no guarantee for everyone.
Question/comment
You mentioned earlier about the positives, but what about the negatives? What happens if someone else wins the tender, what is HR’s role?
JW
There is an understanding that to deliver education we need staff. There is an onus on the local authority to assist those who either do not want to stay or who are not required.
Question/comment
Can we be forced into redundancy?
JW
Hopefully no, but if there is no job there, potentially yes.
Meeting ended 5.30pm
Governors meeting
1.Introduction by Lynda Richardson.
2.Presentation:Lynda Richardson and Mike Marshall
School competition information and anticipated timeline: Lynne Bennett
3.Q & A
Question/commentIf we get the full quota of 52 nursery places what will happen?
LR
You’ve got to apply the admissions criteria but that’s never happened in our nurseries. We would have to look at the admissions criteria but that would apply in isolated cases only.
Question/comment
Are the new houses being taken into account in the projections?
HH
We don’t take it into account. Of the six local authorities across Merseyside, I’m only aware of Sefton having done this. They apply a formula which suggests that for every 1,000 houses built there will be so many young people of secondary school age and so many of primary school age. However this is not particularly reliable and the figures don’t hold up.
We make use of the most up to date information available so the projections are continuously being revised.
VM
We haven’t got a new influx of people. People are moving around the borough and we’re also losing other housing.
HH
We are monitoring all the figures and how accurate they are.
MM
Also, new people who move into the new housing generally choose to send their children out of the borough for their education.
Comment
But if they came into borough there wouldn’t be enough places.
LR
The result of the combined projections show a need for a two form entry school. That leaves us with 11 places, but we will have surplus capacity elsewhere across the borough. We’ve got 25% surplus across the borough so there are other places we could offer parents.
Question/comment
What is the % surplus capacity across Kirkby?
HH to report back.
Post-meeting information:
The number of surplus places is determined by comparing the number on roll excluding nursery with the net capacity assessment figure. NCA takes into account room sizes and use to determine the optimum number of pupils in reception to Y6 that the school can accommodate. The assessment is undertaken on an annual basis with sign off from the head teacher.
In August each year, school level surplus is submitted to DCSF as part of the Supply of School Places Survey with NOR figures are taken from the January Census. The latest ‘official’ figures for the Authorities mainstream schools relate to the academic year 2006/07. All figures presented in the table below relate to primary provision.
Area / Sector / NCA 2007 / NOR 2007 / Surplus Places / % Surplus
Knowsley / 16,338 / 12,987 / 3,351 / 20.5%
Kirkby / 4,313 / 3,357 / 956 / 22.1%
Kirkby RC / 1,737 / 1,328 / 409 / 23.5%
Kirkby CY / 2,366 / 1,791 / 575 / 24.3%
Kirkby CE / 210 / 238 / -28 / 0%
North Kirkby / 1,860 / 1,523 / 337 / 18.1%
North Kirkby RC / 585 / 445 / 140 / 23.9%
North Kirkby CY / 1,275 / 1,078 / 197 / 15.5%
* Kirkby’s CE Sector is oversubscribed.
Question/comment
Why are there no projections for three year olds?
HH
We are currently only obliged to submit projections for reception to year 6 as part of the supply of School Places Survey.
Question/comment
The trend shows that the surplus capacity for Overdale is decreasing, these figures are wrong.The feedback was that the statement said increasing & the figures showed a decrease
LR
You’re right, the surplus decreases from 27% to 24%.
Question/comment
What will happen to statemented children in mainstream schools?
MM
In the future, if we write a statement for a child who would usually have required a place in special provision in the northern area, then they will be allocated a place at the Designated Special Provision. All other Kirkby primary schools will be expected to continue catering for children who have Statements of SEN but who’s needs can be met wholly in a mainstream setting.
Q
So 30 will be coming in and out of mainstream? My concern is you’re dropping the number.
MM
Numbers of children requiring a special school place are decreasing. The 30 figure should provide some room for flexibility as it has been inflated from the original projections to allow for this.
There is a legal framework, the SEN Code of Practicethat we work to, and this governs the way in which placements are made for children with Statements of SEN. The designated provision is part of a borough wide continuum of provision, and we will still have special schools serving the borough, so we’re not removing the option of a special school place.
Question/comment
How were the SEN figures projected?
MM
Trends over the last 3 years, and what we anticipated would be the number of new statements and the complexity of need. Over the last few years the figures have been very accurate.
Comment
You did say it was an inflated figure.
MM
Because of a number of young people in Kirkby with statements who are placed outside the borough. At the moment we would not have enough evidence to bring them back in, but future statements will include this. We also need to have some capacity built in for growth and enhancing how we support children without a statement.
Question/comment
I would like it to be noted that the closure/transfer date is in the middle of year 6 SATS.
Comment
We could phase in the transfer of pupils to the new school so that there is no disruption to year 6 pupils
LR
The timelines are to meet the construction and funding deadlines but your concerns will be noted.
Question/comment
Under what circumstances would the LA not submit a bid?
VM
Because this is so new we haven’t determined that yet.
Question/comment
If the LA were taken over by DCSF would this affect the competition? Is the LA being taken over by DCSF?
LR
The LA has not been taken over. If they were we don’t know how this would affect a competition.
VM
I don’t think this would alter the competition. If there has been an intervention because of standards……
MM
The Schools Adjudicator is truly independent.
VM
The decision has to be based on the same decision-making criteria in the outline specification and the Schools adjudicator will decide who best meets the criteria.
Question/comment
What is a 21st century learning environment?
LR
There is the physical build. Project teams are doing research as part of workstreams and there are also curriculum models which have been published and made available via schools.
Comment
I think as a 1990’s concept this was fine but we’re now in 2008.
MM
It’s also about buildings that are future-proofed and can adapt to new ways of delivering the curriculum.
Question/comment
What is the lifespan of the school.
VM
15 years, I think, but we’ll check that.
Comment
Look at the current school – built in the 1950s for 25 years but still here.
Post-meetingnote:
With the Northwood and Greengates projects, the LA will be responsible from day one as they are not part of the PFI scheme – they are paid for through external government funding.The LA will put a strategy in place to ensure that the buildings are maintained, therefore there is no definitive lifespan for the building.
Question/comment
Are the parents clear about where the school will be situated?
They know it’s on the new campus but not exactly where on the campus.
MM
That’s the proposal we’re putting forward.
Comment
There is very little scope on that site.
Question/comment
I have children, and one of my concerns is, will the children be using the same gate as the secondary children?
That’s one of the main concerns for everyone.
LR
We’ll highlight to the parents about the proposal and where the school is proposed to be located.
OVERDALESCHOOL