678398 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft

#: 678398 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft

03—Sup—94 15:08:52

Sb:Ropes and Knots

Fm:Mike Barrs /PL 720702434

To:Jim Alix/RI 74170234 (x)

You gotta know a few good knots, since they don’t have gadgets yet for everything. But the gadgets can be useful. In my commercial tour business, we tie down six kayaks on a trailer, and sometimes-another two on the truck’s root rack. We use Yakima nylon straps and cam buckles because it’ a lot faster than tying ropes, and the flat nylon strap works better than rope for securing a slippery kayak hull. As for bungie cords.., well, I wouldn’t trust a bungie cord to hold a $2k kayak <g>.

That’s about the only place r don’t use a rope and knot. The ones I use most are bowline (For attaching kayak tow ropes and painters), half—hitch and slipknot half hitch (for securing food bags and rigging tarps while camping), and trucker’s knot (for bow and stern tie—downs on roof racks). You can do a lot with just those four knots.

I prefer braided Dacron (designed for sailboats) to nylon rope for almost all applications. Dacron is wonderful stuff.I use nylon rope only for tow lines and anchor lines, where you want the line to stretch and absorb shock. It’s important to use three—strand (twisted) nylon rope when you want maximum stretch, since braided nylon doesn’t stretch as much. The third common material is polypropylene rope. Its terrible for most rope applications, but ~t floats and it’s very visible in the water, so it’s good for things like rescue lines and tying onto emergency man overboard gear.

Mike Barrs. Mangrove Bay Kayak Tours /Miami

Fr: 679190 S9/Canoe/Kayak/Raft 1

O4Sep—94 20:47:52

Sb:#678398Ropes and Knots

Fm:Anthony Williams 76655,1552

To:Mike Barrs /FL 72070,2434 (X)

To your list of essential knots, I would add the Constrictor Knot of Ashley.

Use it constantly to tie up bags and seize ii no. For joining lines where security is vital the double grapevine is hard to beat. Too like Dacron ropes, but they aren’t cheap!

#: 679394 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.

Sep—94 08:48:01

SB:#679190—Ropes and Knots

Fm:Mike Barrs /fl 72070,2434

To:Anthony Williams 76635552

Illhave to cheek out that Constrictor Knot,thanks

Yeah, sailboat—grade Dacron rope is about twice the cost of nylon. It. does seem to be loss prone to fraying and sunlight damage than nylon rope, so I think it’s worth the investment. I also like the cool selection of colors <g>.

Mike

#: 679956 S9/Ganoe/Kayak/Raft.

OS—Sep—94 22:14:12

SB:rn679394—Ropes and Knots

Fm:Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722

To:Mike Barrs In 72070,2434 00

Mike,

)>Yeah, sailboat—grade Dacron rope is about twice the cost of nylon. It does seem to be less prone to fraying and sunlight damage than nylon rope, <K

Agreed the Dacron rope stretches less and is definitely more pliable but I’ve never seen any problems with braided nylon fraying or degrading in sunlight. I kept two braided nylon lines on my roof racks for five years and the racks were almost always on my Bronco in Georgia. No garage at borne or work so they got nearly maximum exposure. I recently traded vehicles and have moved the lines over to a new rack system. I cinch these up really hard with a Truckers hitch when tying on boats and they’re apparently still very, very, strong. They show no signs of fraying. I’ll continue the test until one fails. (But if one fails on the road it will be one of four lines holding the boat(s).

Jon

*1: 680311 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.

06—Sep—94 10:46:20

SB:1fr679956—Ropes and Knots

Fm:Mike Barrs /FL 72070,2434

To:Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722 (X)

Jon, thanks for the input I could be wrong about Dacron’s better UV—resistance. Our ropes get a Lot of abrasion on the commercial tours (we do things like tie boats up to barnacle-crusted mangroves), so I may just he seeing lOO% mechanical damage and differences in fiber strength and braiding.

Then again, the L1/ radiation where I paddle (South Florida and the Keys) is pretty intense. It does seem like nylon rope starts looking ‘tired’ a lot faster than Dacron.

If anyone lcno~4s of any exposure tests that have been done on these materials, please speak up. I'd like to know if there actually is a difference.

Mike

#: 679957 S9/Canoe/Kayak/Raft

O5Sep—94 22:14:18

SB:#679190-Ropes and Knots

Fm:Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722

To:Anthony Williams 76653,1552 (x)

Anthony, The Grapevine is AKA the Double Fisherman's Knot.

3011

1~: 679958 89/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.

OS—Sep—94 22:14:22

SB:fl678398Ropes and Knots

Fm:Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722

To:Mike Barrs /FL 72070,2434 (x)

Mike,)> I wouldn’t trust a bungie cord to hold a S2k kayak <g). <

I wouldn't trust one to hold a *$2* kayak. Jon

4: 678469 39/canoe/Kayak/Raft 1

03—Sep—94 17:56:37

Sb:Ropes and Knots

Fm:FRED RAY 76450,3264

To:Jim Alix/RI 74170,254 (X)

Jim,

RE:Knots

We use ropes and knots a lot. Recently technical rope work has undergone somewhat of a rebirth. After teaching many rescue courses we settled on the figure—B family of knots. You can do anything you need to with them, and they are

1)Simple and similar

2)Easy to visually verify that they are tied correctly

3)Strong

4)Less likely to come untied than other knots (like bowlines).

Figure—8 stopper Figure—8 on a bight a loop for anything Figure—B tracer = join two ropes or put a loop around something Double figure—B increased strength, improvised harness, multi—point anchor systems.

A single figure—8 can also be configured for a self—equalizing anchor, or used to tie your boat down. If you can only remember one knot —— this is the one!

Slim

P.S. A good recent book is KNOTS FOR CLIMBERS by Craig Luebben, Chockstone Press, Evergreen, CO 1993.

4: 681136 39/Canoe/Kayak/Raft:1

06—Sep—94 23:56:34

Sb:#678469—Ropes and Knots

Fm:Joe Pylka/NJ 72345,1601

To:FRED RAY 76450,3264 (x)

I’d concur about the f8 knot family. Two other very important factors:

It does not reduce rope strength as much as other knots (an overhand will take away 50% or better of the ropes strength, and f8 maybe 20%), and it doesn’t jam, SO it’s easier to untie.

I have that book, also. It’s very good, cheap, and easily available. In my area EMS carries it.

My experience with Dacron suggested that its UV sensitive, though not as much as rayon. Insofar as Nylon is concerned, it has a higher melting point than do some of the other synthetic fibers: A carahiner can get VERY hot from friction.

——J00 P.

U:679145 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft 04—Sep—94 19:13:50

Sb:Ropes and Knots

Fm:Kit Farwell/VA 72711,2770

To:Jim Alix/RI 74170,254 (x)

I much prefer figure 8 to a bowline. It’s easier to see that it’s tied right. I can tie a bowline in my living room a 100 times in a row, but somehow in real life when yours standing at some weird angle, it always gets screwed up.

Tie down straps are quick and easy for a boat on the roof. Some people us bungie cords, but that is just asking for it. — Kit

#: 679276 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.1

04-Sep—94 23: 13:22

Sb:Ropes and Knots

Fm:Chuck Hawley 75104,1254

To:Jim Alix/RI 74170,254 (X)

Jim:

In addition to the other good suggestions, Scouts and boaters should know the Constrictor and Double Constrictor. Great for making jury rigs.

Also, the Tautline Hitch is a winner. And of course, a raft of Bowlines, including the lovely Bowline on Bight.

Good luck.

Chuck Hawley, West Marine.

~P: 679676 89/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.

05—Sep—94 17:02:38

Sb:#679276—Ropes and Knots

Fm:Jim Alix/RI 74170,254

To:Chuck Hawley 75104,1254 (X)

Thanks for your suggestions, Chuck. I’ve been wanting to learn the constrictor knot for some time now, but when I had to teach knots at Scout day camp this summer, I pushed myself to learn it. It’s a great knot for au kinds of things, particularly for tying sacks.

--Jim

Fr: 680077 S9/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.

06—Sep—94 00:50:17

Sb:#679676—Ropes and Knots

Fm:Chuck Hawley 75104,1254

To:Jim Mix/RI 74170,254 (x)

Jim

And tying reluctant Scouts wrists. OK, that probably wouldn’t h’ considered funny at the old campfire, but I am from Santa Cruz

Chuck

#: 679372 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.1

05—Sep—94 06:42:49

Sb:Ropes and Knots

Fm:Mark Neisler/GA 73023,140

To:Jim Mix/RI 74170,254 (x)

Jim,

NEVER use bungees! If you keep your eyes open when driving our highways and byways, you will see many various bungee straps lying in the road. Good knots are hard to beat. As a Cubmaster you should learn knots and pass this knowledge on to future outdoorsman. Ratchet straps I do use when I find that they are more useful. They can become a crutch if the boater doesn’t know his knots to begin with. What would your young scouts do if they found themselves in a situation without them?

Be prepared.

Mark.

3: 679732 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft:1

05—Sep—94 17:59:53

Sb:#679372—Ropes and Knots

Fm:John Morris/MO 70771,1236

To:Mark Neisler/GA 73023,140 (x)

Can someone recommend a good book for 1t~arning various knots? I know nothing about knots and a recent canoe trip made me think I should learn some.

#: 679955 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.1

05—Sep—94 22:14:07

Sb:#679732—Ropes and Knots

Fm:Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722

To:John Morris/MO 70771,1236 00

John,

Suggested in this thread were:

*The Morrow Guide to Knots*, Bigon & Regazzoni. This book, translated from Italian, is a beautiful work on all kinds of rope and knot applications ranging from utility knots to making of rope mats and braiding. Seventy most useful knots to know with 647 color photographs and lists for only $12.93.

*The back of the package and the insert of a package of Lehigh rope*

*River Rescue*, by Les Bechdel and Slim Ray (aka FRED RAY 76450,3264).

*A good recent book is KNOTS FOR CLIMBERS by Craig Luebben, Checkstone Press, Evergreen, CO 1.993.

BTW, I don’t recall reading much skinny on your recent trip. We were all holding our collective breath after you sought advice here. Was it fun or boring, any real problems? What would you tell others who were going on the same trip and had the same experience level you did?

jon

3: 680868 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft:1

O6Sep—94 20:44:15

Sb:#679732Ropes and Knots

Fm:Mark Neisler/CA 73023,140

To:John Morris/Mo 70771,1236 00

Most of the knots I use I learned as a Boy Scout and later as an Assistant ScoutMaster. I have taken several river rescue clinics and learned some in those. The rest I just picked up from friends.

There is one book that I see a lot of outdoors people with, but I can’t remember the title. It is a small book and it comes with its own piece of string. I’ve seen it at REI, if you have one of their stores in your area.

Some of the knots I use are two half hitches, taut line (bow and stern tie downs on racks), prussic (z Drag for broached boats) sheet bend, square knot, and the trucker’s hitch (tying boats to racks), and the Steve Thomas Rope trick (also for unbroaching boats).

I also use some other knots for caving.

If you are canoeing and don t know what a Z Drag is, you should learn. You use it to unbroach boats. Very Handy!

Mark

3: 679674 39/Canoe/Kayak/Raft .1

O6-Sep—94 17:02:16

Sb:Ropes and Knots

Fm:Jim Alix/RI 74170,254

To:Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722 (X)

I know the figure eight knot as a stopper knot and as part of the postman knot for tying bundles, but I’m not familiar with any other variations of it. Would one of the references you cite contain that info?

Thanks for your help, Jon.

-Jim

#: 679959 S9/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.1

05—Sep—94 22: 14:26

Sb:#679674—Ropes and Knots

Fm:Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722

To:Jim Alix/RI 74170,254 0<)

Jim,

>I know the figure eight knot as a stopper knot and as part of 1.he postman knot for tying bundles, but I’m not familiar with any other variations of it. Would one of the references you cite contain that info? <

See Slims message in this thread on the Figure (of) Eight Family. The >Morrow Guide to Knots has numerous variations of the F08. That book is organized by application and in almost every section there is some variation of the P08, but its all the same basic knot.

Jon

3: 679675 39/Canoe/Kayak/Raft 1

05—Sep—94 17:02:30

Sb:Ropes and Knots

Fm:Jim Alix/RI 74170,254

To:Alan August/RI 71660,2413 OK)

I've not met her nor heard her name in the Scouting circles I ~‘u been n. I’ve been a Cubmaster only a few months, however, so very well ray meet her someday.

Thanks for your rep [y Alan. Rhode Is I and being thesmall state it is, perhaps you and I will meet someday.

Thanks.

—-Jim

~: 680264 S9/Canoe/Kayak/RafL .1

06—Sep—94 09:58:31

Sb:Ropes and Knots

FR:David S. HablewitL/SC 74107,3674

To:Jim Atix/RI 74170,254 (X)

My two cents worth:

)> But with the advent of ratchet tie—downs and bungee cords, I’m curious whether people still bother learning knots. If so, what kind of knots are commonly used? And what kinds of ropes are used for what purposes.

Velcro too. Knot tying is a dying art. I once had a book that described how to tie over a thousand knots. Cone and out of print.

As for bungees, all they’re good for is jumping off of bridges. (and if bungee jumpers knew what paddlers know, they wouldn’t be bungee jumpers!)

Too bad you couldn’t be at our last paddling club meeting. The topic was knot tying and rope care. I was the host. J included my outline at the end of this message.

If you're working with cubs, avoid the fancy knots. Figure 8, 5utsare knot (good for shoe laces, but that’s about it), slipknot (it’s never taught for some reason, but many applications like the trucker’s knot), clove hitch, etc. Showing how they are all similar makes it easier to tie them, like a sheet bend & bowline. Look close and you’ll see they re actually the same knot. Clove hitch & two half hitches are similar too. Showing how they are used is at least as important as teaching how to tie them. I once met a life scout who could proudly tie all six basic knots in 31 seconds, but didn’t have a clue what they were used for. A case of “I completed the requirements, didn’t I?”

Rope vs. Webbing

Ropes are very handy for tying boats to roof racks the most common applications by people in this forum, But that ~s he one time I use straps (webbing) with earn locks (not ratchets!) Why?

—Very fast to secure and release.

—Webbing keeps the load from slipping better since it provides marc surface contact with the toad.

—Webbing is incredibly strong.

—The strength of a knotted rope is never 100% of the strength of an unknotted rope.

The amount of strength retained is related to the ratio of the sharpest turn in the knot vs. the diameter of the rope. Since webbing is very thin this ratio is very favorable so knotted webbing (using webbing—specific knots) is almost as strong as unknotted. Some knots can reduce a rope’ s strength by as much as 50%. BTW, this just another reason to use -a figure 8 on a bite over a bowline.

Jim, you mentioned you are a Cubmaster. I don’t think the knots are in any of he cub books, so get the Boy Scout Handbook. Also, get a Pioneering merit badge book. I suggest: these since they are directed toward the scouting program and easily available to your scout-s too. Tim side effect is that they get a taste of Boy Scouts and will be more likely to continue their scouting career.

P.S. some of the following facts may be inaccurate. This was just my outline.

Ropes & Knots in Paddling

Fabrics of Rope
hemp, cotton, & other naturals / weak, cheap, age in sun / clothes line
Polyethylene / strong,floats, stretches when wet, slippery knots / Water ski rope
nylon / extremely strong, very expensive, low abrasion, doesn’t float well / general purpose
spectra / Very strong, elastic / kite string for power kites, climbing rope
kevlar / very strong, elastic / bulletproof knots
combinations / best of both types used / rock climbing

Types of Weave

twisted / cheap, easy to splice, most elastic
braided / strong, holds its shape, maintains strength when knotted better
kernmantle / braided hollow outer layer with a braided inner core

Sizes & Example Applications

(Usually measured in mm)

5—8 mm / Prussic ropes
8 – 11 mm / Rescue ropes
13+ mm / Rock climbing ropes

Care

Care:

Unpack rescue ropes when storing!
Keep out of sand and rinse after every trip (do not launder)
Store out of sunlight in a cool, dry place
Do not spray with chemicals
Do not 5 op oil rope

Terminology

standing end
running end
bite
static vs. dynamic
working load vs. max load

Knots

figure 8

Square knot
sheet bend
bowline
clove hitch
two half hitches
taughtline hitch
fisherman’s knot
prussic
trucker’s knot

Fr: 680649 S9/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.

06—Sep—94 17:10:21

Sb:#680264—Ropes and Knots

Fm:Richard Hopley/MD—DC/OC1 73520,3422

To:David S. Hablewitz/SC 74107,3674 (X)

Flabz,

Bite ~> bight

Richard “Bight—my—tongue” Hopley

Fr:680463 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.1 06—Sep—94 13:22:50

Sb:Ropes and Knots