THE END of YOUR SEARCH for the INVISIBLE CHURCH

The END of your SEARCH for an IMAGINARY CHURCH

(Herb Evans versus Jeff Nachimson)

Here is the most unusual and incredible discussion that you have ever read, regarding the invisible, mystical church of all believers. For the most part, except for some irresistible annotations of mine to Jeffrey Nachimson’s last letter at the climax of the discussion, we have allowed Jeff Nachimson, alleged Baptist “preacher” from Victory Baptist Church of Duncan, Oklahoma to have his say in many handwritten pages. (See Composite Reply with annotations of Jeffrey Nachimson’s letters at the end.)

Note the insults and name calling by rude novice, whose combative character has not changed to date July 17, 2004, several years later in recent confrontations with me and some others. His cryptic interpretation of Bible passages should be read by every Bible believing Baptist, if for nothing else but to realize the lengths that such Invisible Church MYSTICS will go to in order to prove something exists that does not exist. We have reproduced, for permission’s sake, the entire correspondence at Jeffrey D. Nachimson’s insistence. This started with a handwritten letter (4/9/97) from Jeffrey Nachimson, a cocky and arrogant young man, who is unhappy over an article of mine in the “Flaming Torch.” Jeff’s hand written letters typed by Herb Evans. – Herb Evans

HAIFLY ONE (4/9/97)

Herb Evans,“The word “ecclesia” occurs in the Bible 117 times. “Out of that 117, times it is used as referring to a Local church. Ten times it is a reference to the organic, spiritual (not mystical!) Body of the Lord Jesus Christ, of which He is the head (Eph. 1:22; Col 1:18; 1 Cor. 12:27; 1 Tim. 3:15, etc...) “The church of the Lord Jesus Christ is a local assembly called out front the nation of Israel to testify to the fact that He (Jesus Christ) is the promised Son of David, the Jewish Messiah, who is to sit on the throne of David. This local church is converted to an organic living Body at Pentecost and from then on is an organic living Body at Pentecost and from then on is called out to witness to the fact that not only is the Lord Jesus the Jewish Messiah, but he is the Saviour of the world, dying on the cross and making a blood atonement that “taketh away the sin of the world.” (The Local Church, ______) The greatest stumbling block for the “Briders” is the fact that in the early days of the church all of the Body (all of the saved people) met in the same Local assembly. This makes it look like the local assembly is the “Body” (ibid, pg. ___).

This is just the introduction, Mr. Evans. I’ve got a whole Bible full to give. Answer this, please. How can one discuss the locality or universality or both concerning the “church” if the church is the “body” and “Baptism” puts a man into the “Body.” If he’s saved, of course! Observe closely. Acts 2:47 - “. . . And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”

Now look at Acts 5:14 - “And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both men and women.” Well, I’ll declare, people are added to the church and added to the Lord. What does it mean to be “In Christ?” In his “body,” perhaps? Luke did not write these verses until the apostle of the Body “Mystery” has been with him for nearly ten years. When Luke says “added to the Lord” he has 1 Corinthians 12:13 right in front of him. Luke equates “church” with the “Lord” in his writing, while reading Gal. 2-3 and 1 Cor. 12. Guess what, “but he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” (1 Cor. 6:17). How does that happen? Joining a local New Testament Baptist Church? I think not! See the answer in (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal 3:26; Rom 6:1-6; and 1 Cor 12:13; and Col 2:9-14. The Lord called out his church in Matthew 10. One member turns out to be an infidel (Thomas), one cusses and swears before unsaved people (Peter), and the treasurer of the church is a devil (Judas, John 6). This is not the “body of Christ who (sic) members are member of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones” (Eph. 5).

Since I’ve already mentioned Ephesians 5, let me make an interesting point. So according to you and your “Baptist Bride,” Eph 5:23 applies to the individual husband - wife relationship, recapitulating Christ as the head of each assembly? Right? Then how do you justify one head for each wife? Verse 25 - “Husbands (plural), love your wives (plural) even as Christ (singular) also loved the church (singular), and gave himself for it (singular)”; The reference is the husband - wife relationship, man. After all, Christ is one body, is he not (1 Cor. 12:12)? Water baptism doesn’t accomplish verse 30, but the Spirit baptism does! (Eph. 4:5). Here’s a good quote, Herb. “The verse settles beyond any question the matter of the local church and “the church which is His body.” To say that Christ died for the local church would be nonsense. (Commentary on ______, _____, ____. Pg. _____. ___ was referring to Eph. 5:25 by the way.

The local church is the gathering together of certain members of the body of Christ in a specific locality. Sometimes, there is more than one local church in each locality. See Gal. 1:2; Acts 20; Phil. 1:1 for starters. Isn’t it peculiar that Ephesians 1:1 is addressed to “the saints which are at Ephesus and to the faithful in Christ Jesus”:, but Paul refers to “the church” (Eph. 1:22; Eph. 5:23, 25, 30). Galatians 1:13 is also a reference to “the body of Christ.” If you think it’s just “the church of Jerusalem” why don’t you read Acts 8:1-3 with Acts 9:31, and tell me “what that meaneth.I’ll tell you what, Herb. Instead of sending you 20 pages, I’ll leave you at this point to respond. If you do, we’ll continue. If not O.K. Whatever you want.

In further correspondence I’ll cover 1 Cor. 12; Gal. 3:26; Eph. 2: 1 Tim 3:15; 1 Cor 10: 1 Cor 6: 1 Thess 1-2; Matthew 16:16-18 (be sure and get a head start by studying “the gates of hell shall not PREVAIL AGAINST IT:’ Eph.3; the family of God (boy has that been blown out of proportion); or anything else you can make a conjecture of. Have fun with the milk. Let’s see how you handle it. In Christ (the Body).

P.S. I’m an Independent Baptist preacher from a local church in Duncan, OK named Victory Baptist Church. Also, no part of this may be reproduced without the express, written, authorization of me. I play hard ball. Write back.”

Signed Jeffrey Nachimson Gal. 5:20

HERB EVANS REPLY ONE (April 14, 1997)

Dear Jeffrey,Thank you for your letter, which obviously reflects your irritation with my view of the church. Believe what you wish; it doesn’t bother me a bit. It is a free country (almost). You say, “. . . no part of this may be reproduced without the express, written, authorization of me. I play hardball. Write back.”

Now, listen carefully, if you wish to correspond with me, this is the way that it is going to be. I will answer your questions and challenges and letters. You will answer my questions and letters. We will quote from the Bible not other men’s books. Perhaps, you have something to hide from Christendom; I don’t! Still, I will reproduce your correspondence in its entirety without any permission from you; you may do the same with mine. You will not play the young smart aleck (preacher or no)! I, on occasion, play hardball, if I must! Have a good day. I am not a Baptist Brider, as you imply, I am a local church only. Go ye and learn what that meaneth! – Herb Evans

NACHIMSON RESPONSE ONE (April 22, 1997)

Herb Evans, Regarding your letter dated April 14, a few items need to be corrected, First of all “irritation” is not my motive for challenging your “local church position.” Scriptural misrepresentation (see your article in the last issue of the Flaming Torch - “The end of your Search for the invisible church), bias misappropriation (your quotes from Haifly’s letter). And simple curiousity. Two, my quotes from ______’s books were for specific purposes.

1.) To see what you would say (Since you print articles in the ______

2). They were prominent ostentacious representatives of my biblical position. Paul quotes their sources (Acts 17 - unsaved poet), and so do you (see correspondence with . . . . You quoted Spurgeon to prove a point).

3.) Thirdly, there is really no need for you to be a “debate moderator.” Actually, I had already coincided with your proposition. I sent you scriptural references with accompanying questions. That is all I wanted to do. Answer and refute you, and have you attempt to answer the Bible, got it?

Concerning the “play the young smart aleck” inference, your statement amounts to nothing, save a good laugh. Thank you. As for hiding from Christendom, you obviously pre-assumed my motive, and again (Becoming a habit, it seems). I said “no part . . .” Please reproduce my letters in their entirety.

Leaving out portions is not only dishonest in some cases but can miss the intent of the author, Excuse my “foolish implications” (facetious statement) regarding you as a Baptist Brider. I obviously took for granted that since you believe the local Baptist Church is the body of Christ (which is his bride), if you are not a member of this body, you’re not in the Bride. Either way you don’t believe Christ has one spiritual body composed of all the saved from Pentecost to the Rapture, called the church.

Perhaps everyone constitutes “the church” at the rapture, since the rapture is supposedly “a called out assembly.” (That is Jack Hyles’ position). Why don’t you clarify your position for me? All I have is your recent “Torch” article. You do teach the verses the same as the Briders (Gal. 3:26, Eph. 4:5, 1 Cor. 12:13, I Time 3:15, etc...) They teach all are in the family of God, but not the church (like you teach).

Maybe it’s the terms you’re discombobulated with? You tell me. Illuminate my psychological vicissitudes, please. Your proposition is fine, Bro. Evans Although I will quote a source if they reinforce scriptural truth. No more capricious letters. Just to the point, no evasion, and all questions answered, or questions returned. “Let’s get the show on the road.” So long, brother.In Christ, Signed Jeffrey D. Nachimson, 7234 NW 36th # 2001, Bethany, Ok 73008 (not Duncan)

P.S. Remember, just because one plays hardball, doesn’t mean they are accomplishing anything. One can still strike out!

HERB EVANS REPLY TWO (April 26, 1997)

Jeffery,Thank you for your letter (4/22/97) and your consent to print our correspondence. So, you have disavowed my insinuation (without noting my use of the word “perhaps.” Fine! I have disavowed your implication that I am a Baptist “Brider.” We are even. I still have not been assured that you will not play the “smart aleck.” Still, I will answer your letter of April 9, 1997 as follows. You say:

1.) The word “ecclesia” occurs in the Bible 117 times. Out of that 117 times, it is used as referring to a Local church ten times it is a reference to the organic, spiritual (not mystical!) Body of the Lord Jesus Christ, of which He is the head (Eph. 1:22; Col 1:18; 1 Cor. 12:27; 1 Tim. 3:15, etc... – Jeffrey Nachimson

1. A.) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. -- Eph. 1:22, 23

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. -- Col. 1:18

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. (written to the local church of God, which is at Corinth -- 1 Cor. 12:27

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. --1 Tim. 3:15

We would both agree that the body of Christ is not mystical. We would also agree that the actual physical body of Christ is organic and spiritual. We would agree that the 110 times (ecclesia) which you cited are, indeed, the local church.

We probably would agree that the local church is physical and organic, an assembly of organic, physical people. I would contend that the local church is also a spiritual house (1 Pet 2:5) made up of physical, organic, spiritual individuals (Gal. 6:1; 1 Cor. 2:15) except when carnal (1 Cor. 3:1). I would also contend that Christ is the head of the local Church and that Christ is the head of the local body. If not, who is the head of the local church/body? The Pope? Is your mysterious house of God in heaven? If so, how do you behave yourself in your mysterious house of God in the sky. If you are a member of the actual, physical, organic body of Christ. What part of you is a member? Your body? Your soul? Your Spirit? Where is the scripture for your answer? What is the address of the other 6 times your special church is mentioned? What is the mechanism that you use to distinguish this special church from the other 107 occurrences? Intuition? Spiritual discernment? Would I be correct in saying that you advocate two Christian churches in Scripture? Two bodies? – Herb Evans

2.) The church of the Lord Jesus Christ is a local assembly called out from the nation of Israel to testify to the fact that He (Jesus Christ) is the promised Son of David, the Jewish Messiah, who is to sit on the throne of David. This local church is converted to an organic living Body at Pentecost and from then on is an organic living Body at Pentecost and from then on is called out to witness to the fact that not only is the Lord Jesus the Jewish Messiah, but he is the Saviour of the world, dying on the cross and making a blood atonement that “taketh away the sin of the world.” – Jeffrey Nachimson

2. A.) I have examined Acts 2 and the day of Pentecost and cannot find this conversion of a local church to an organic living body at Pentecost. Was the pre-Pentecost local church not alive before Pentecost? Were its members not already organic? Mineral? Vegetable? Did anyone see this conversion? What scripture specifically shows this conversion? – Herb Evans

3.) This is just the introduction, Mr. Evans. I’ve got a whole Bible full to give. Answer this please. How can one discuss the locality or universality or both concerning the “church” if the church is the “body” and “Baptism” puts a man into the “Body.” If he’s saved, of course. – Jeffrey Nachimson

3. A.) Well, if the baptism is “local” and the “local church” is “local” and the “local body” is “local,” I have no trouble discussing its locality. If it is a “generic baptism” or a “generic local church” or a “generic local body,” I have no trouble discussing its generic universality. Of course, I keep in mind that the generic always implies a specific single unit. – Herb Evans

4.) Observe closely. Acts 2:47 - “... And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” Now look at Acts 5:14 - “And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both men and women.”

Well, I’ll declare, people are added to the church and added to the Lord. What does it mean to be “In Christ?” In his “body, perhaps?” Luke did not write these verses until the apostle of the Body ‘Mystery’ has been with him for nearly ten years. When Luke says ‘added to the Lord’ he has 1 Corinthians 12:13 right in front of him. Luke equates “church” WITH the “Lord” in his writing, while reading Gal. 2-3 and 1 Cor. 12. Guess what, “but he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” (1 Cor. 6:17). How does that happen? Joining a local New Testament Baptist Church? I think not! See the answer in (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal 3:26; Rom 6:1-6; and 1 Cor 12:13; and Col 2:9-14.– Jeffrey Nachimson

4. A.) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added to them about three thousand souls. -- Acts 2:41

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved. -- Acts 2:47

You sure do “declare”; it would be better if you do prove. Yes, people are added to the Lord, and they are added to the church. The terms are not always necessarily synonymous, as you try to force them to be.

In this case, those that were water baptized were added to them (a local church). Acts 2:41 is no different from those that were added to a local church in Acts 2:47, unless you can show otherwise by the context. –Herb Evans

4.B.) And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things . . . And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them . . . And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women . . . --Acts 5:11, 13, 14

In the case of Acts 5:14, an important distinction is made in the context. Fear came upon the local church, and of the rest durst no man join himself to them (local church), but believers were added to the Lord (salvation). -- Herb Evans