How to Set Boundaries Without Feeling Guilty

Conferences for Women

How to Set Boundaries Without Feeling Guilty

Guest: Vanessa Loder

Interviewer: Karen Breslau

Karen:Welcome to the Conference for Women Teleclass: How to Set Boundaries Without Feeling Guilty. Our guest today is Vanessa Loder, co-founder of Mindfulness Based Achievement, the new MBA, a company that provides in-person and online educational tools that help women leaders learn how to lean in without burning out. She is also the founder and CEO of Akoya Power, a company that supports women in leading more purposeful, professional lives.

In this session Vanessa Loder will share seven key habits that will enable you to say no and set boundaries with ease. Learning these skills will free time and energy for you to pursue those things that really matter. We’ll be sharing highlights from today’s call on Twitter. You can follow along and join the conversation @PennWomen, @TexasWomen, @MassWomen, and in California at #LeadOnCA. And a reminder, today’s teleclass will be available as a podcast on your conference website. If you registered through Eventbrite, you will receive an email telling you when the podcast is available. And now feeling no guilt I’d like to welcome Vanessa Loder to the Conference for Women teleclass – Vanessa.

Vanessa:Thank you. That was just a lovely introduction. Feeling no guilt in this moment I will say.

Karen:Yes, exactly.

Vanessa: Yeah, guilt is definitely something I still struggle with, which is why I love teaching about this topic. And I wanted to start by just telling a story. I was leading a workshop for working mothers a couple of years ago, and one of the mothers in the group shared with everyone that a couple weeks prior their husband was going to pick up their child from daycare. And for whatever reason he ended up there about 45 minutes early. There was less traffic, or he got there sooner than expected. And that night over dinner she asked him, “So what did you do during that 45 minutes?” And he said, “I got a beer.” And she said, “What? You got a beer at 3:00 in the afternoon before picking our son up from daycare?” And her husband said, “Yeah, why? What’s the problem?” And it was a moment for me that was such an aha because all of the women in the room were shocked and just laughing at the fact that a husband would go and get a beer at 3:00 in the afternoon when he had 45 minutes to spare.

And when I asked them through a show of hands, “How many of you if you had 45 minutes to spare before picking your child up from daycare would – maybe not go get a beer – but even go get a pedicure or just do anything relaxing for yourself?” And not a single hand went up. And I said, “What would you do in that time?” And everyone said, “Well I would take a call for work. I would check my email. I would see if there’s a store nearby that I could pick up diapers or groceries. I would go run some sort of errand.” And it was this really defining moment for me where I realized, wow, there’s a way in which I think we, as women, are taking on so much more than we need to sometimes. And even though some people’s initial reaction might be, “Well who does that guy think he is to get a beer at 3:00 in the afternoon,” perhaps instead we should be asking ourselves, “Who am I not taking a little bit of time to relax for myself? And why am I saying yes to every single demand that comes at me and then feeling so exhausted and overwhelmed and busy.”

And so that’s really what we’re going to talk about today is how can you start to say no and set boundaries without feeling guilty. And I want to start off by telling a little bit about my background as well and how I came to some of this work and this research. So as you said, my name’s Vanessa Loder, and I have been an overachiever my entire life. I graduated from an Ivy League school, Psi Beta Kappa, summa cum laude, top of my class, while playing Division 1 varsity soccer because it wasn’t good enough to be smart or athletic; I had to do both. And then when I graduated I took the most intense job I could find, which at the time was investment banking on Wall Street. And I would work these 80, 100-hour weeks, and I would come home so drained and exhausted from work that I would just collapse on the couch and zone out in front of the television or drink a little too much wine because I was so drained from my job. Those were really the only coping mechanisms I had to deal with my stress.

And that theme of achievement went on for many years. I went on to work in private equity and got my MBA from Stanford. And basically got to this point in my career where I was on track to be a partner at this firm, financially very successful. Everything on paper looked great, and yet I was exhausted and overwhelmed and still busy. And I would lie in bed at night with my mind just racing with all the things I had to do the next day. And I felt like there had to be a better way to be successful without feeling so overwhelmed all the time. So I ended up hiring an executive coach and then started to do all this … I had what Brené Brown likes to call a spiritual awakening. I started to do all this soul searching and got really into mindfulness and meditation and actually found all these amazing alternative healing modalities – ways you could reprogram your neurology to change your response to stress. And I got really into studying the research that could create real change for women. And long story short, I ended up changing myself so much that I quit my job in finance and decided to dedicate my life to bringing these tools to other women and particularlywomen in the business world. So that’s what I’ve been doing for five years now. And my business partner, Lisa, and I – as you mentioned – co-founded Mindfulness Based Achievement, the new MBA, two years ago to teach women how to lean in without burning out. And we have an online program and a free 30-day meditation challenge, which I’ll give you more info about those towards the end of this call, so stay tuned.

And that’s really become my life’s work is teaching women how to create sustainable success. And one of the things that comes up time and time again is this theme of how busy women feel that they are. And I’ve had so many women say to me, “I know it’s so important to take time for myself, but when I do I feel self-indulgent, and I feel guilty.” And another women recently asked me, “Well how can I feel less guilty having ‘me’ time? I know I want to take this ‘me’ time, but I just feel so guilty.” So how can we do this? How can we take time for ourselves without feeling guilty or self-indulgent?

Well I have some fascinating research to share with you today. There’s a PhD researcher named Lise Vesterlund who did some work at … she’s a professor of economics at the University of Pittsburgh. And she recently found that – whether it’s volunteering for a committee or agreeing to pick up the slack for a sick colleague at work – she found that women are more likely than men to do three things: number one, to volunteer to do non-promotable tasks; number two, to be asked to do non-promotable tasks; and number three, to say yes when asked to do these mundane tasks. So women are overcommitted in a lot of ways. And what her research showed was exactly what I had found in this workshop that I was leading with women – is that women tend to feel more of a psychological burden when they’re asked to do someone a favor. So her research actually showed that while considering how to respond to a request 31 percent of women felt worn out; they were worried; they had a difficult time saying no; and they were afraid of being perceived as someone who is not helpful. In comparison, less than 10 percent of the men felt this way. So a third of the women and less than 10 percent of the men. Men, in contrast, were concerned with whether or not it was a good use of their time; would it help their career; and would the person owe them a favor in the future.

So in other words, the men were much more focused on their own self-interests and how things were going to promote and develop their own careers versus the women were more worried about being perceived as someone who’s not helpful. Or they were worried that people wouldn’t like them.

So what can we, as women, do to change this pattern? Well first of all, the good news is by simply joining this call with me today you’re actually starting to change the pattern for yourself because part of it is just having a mindset shift around boundaries and saying no. And so just by becoming aware of the research that I just shared with you is going to help you have more confidence in your ability to say no. So that’s the good news. Just by taking this time to get some new tools you’re going to see a shift with this. And today I want to share seven tips to help you learn how to set boundaries and say no with ease.

So the first step is to start small. To begin with I suggest that you pick something small that you would like to say no to. And then see how it feels to get that one thing off your plate. Once you refuse to do something small you might actually see that people don’t hate you. Life goes on, and the world continues turning. It’s okay. And then the next time it will be even easier to say no to a bigger request. So take a moment – and even just right now while you’re on this call – see if you can think of an example of something small that you would like to say no to. And it could be a social engagement like going to a party or an event that you’re really not looking forward to attending or you’re just feeling tired and you’d rather stay home and read a good book. Or it could be a small project at work or someone’s asked you to spend some extra time doing something for them, a small favor and you’re really feeling a little bit burdened by that and don’t feel like you have the time. So pick something small and say no to that first. That’s step number one.

So the second step is to really trust your body. So if something feels heavy in your body or just feels wrong inside of you then you should say no to the request. And if you feel really light and free and good when you’re considering it, then definitely say yes. So the key is to learn how to recognize your own internal signals and ignore the pressure that other people put on you. So we all have this wonderful ability to access our intuition, and our intuition can really guide us in what’s going to give us energy and fulfil us versus the “shoulds” in our life, the things we’re doing because we think we should. You know those times when you override your intuition because you think you should do something? Tuning into your body will help you avoid that. I have an example where one day my daughter … I had dropped her off with our nanny. And the nanny called me and said, “Your daughter said her tummy hurts a little bit.” And my intuition said it really wasn’t a serious issue or a big deal. And the nanny was a little bit nervous because I think she wanted to make sure that my daughter was safe and protected. And so she said, “Well maybe you should take her to the doctor.” And deep down I thoughtI should probably wait and see if this gets worse or she has a fever. We checked her temperature. She didn’t have a fever. So I ended up calling the doctor’s office, talking to the nurse, and the nurse said, “It’s up to you. Maybe on the safe side bring her in.”

Long story short, I ended up taking the morning off work to drive my daughter to the doctor’s office and to be totally honest, and a little bit vulnerable here, I actually did it mostly because I was scared of my nanny judging me and thinking I was a bad mother and not because I was actually worried about my daughter being sick. And so we got to the doctor, and daughter was like, “My stomach feels fine,” and she started eating and had a big appetite. And there was absolutely nothing wrong with her. And then I drove her home and I realized, wow, I just blew up my whole day and kind of overreacted to this situation. And deep down my body knew the answer. My intuition knew that my daughter was safe and fine. And yet I sort of let fear and this belief that I should err on the side of caution cause me to do this activity that I really didn’t believe in. So that's step number two is to trust your body and to really tune into your intuition.

The third step is to practice awareness and compassion – so just to recognize that it’s normal if you’re feeling worried about someone not liking you if you refuse a request. Feeling guilty or afraid that people will not trust you or value your opinion is also normal. And many times, these are the reasons why we keep saying yes – even when we’re exhausted and simply don’t have the time because we’re afraid people won’t like us. We don’t want to feel guilty. So these fears and beliefs – they’re actually not going to go away. I’m here to tell you today that part of the secret to saying no is to learn to get comfortable with the uncomfortable feeling that it involves. And I know that can be a difficult pill to swallow, but in some ways it’s good news to know you’re not alone. It’s perfectly normal to feel this way and especially if you’re a woman, compared to men. The research shows you’re more likely to feel this way. So hopefully that will help you get over the hump and say, “All right, even though this feels uncomfortable to me, I’m still going to say no – even though it feels scary.” So step three is to practice awareness and compassion for yourself. So just know that it normal to feel scared or to feel worried about someone not liking you and say no anyway.

Step number four is don’t apologize. Don’t apologize when you say no. So there’s no need to say, “I’m sorry,” when your answer is no. You haven’t done anything wrong. Instead, what I recommend doing is something called an appreciation sandwich. What an appreciation sandwich is is you start with an appreciation. You say no and then end with an appreciation. It’s actually one of the best ways to give someone kind of a kind rejection when they make a request of you. So it’s one of my most effective pieces of advice for saying no. So tell the other person what you appreciate about him or her and then say no and then maybe end with an appreciation. So for example, you might say, “I appreciate you for reaching out, and I can see that it’s important for you to find support as you build this business; however, I won’t be able to get together in person at this time.” And then if you want you can layer on a second appreciation at the end depending on whether that feels authentic or not. But the good news is when you appreciate someone when they make a request, while standing firm in your no, they receive it in a much more gentle way. And so that can also ease some of the burden that women might feel around having difficulty something no and wanting to be liked.

I actually got a rejection from someone where they did an appreciation sandwich to me, and it was one of the best rejections I’ve ever gotten – where they said, “Sorry, we don’t have time for this.” I was actually going to interview someone for a “Forbes” article I was writing. And the person was too busy. And they sent me the most kind rejection email – the kindest rejection email I’ve ever gotten. And it honestly made me what to work with her even more. So if you use an appreciation sandwich and you don’t apologize you’ll find that people respect you even more when you say no. So that’s the fourth step – don’t apologize and use an appreciation sandwich.

The fifth step to saying no without feeling guilty is to be short and confident in your no. So here’s the deal. When you feel bad or uncertain about saying no, it actually makes the situation more awkward. People respond to your guilt, and they’re actually more likely to push back and try to convince you to change your mind if you are hemming and hawing and your guilt is really coming across in the way in which you’re saying no. A lot of people don’t really say no. They actually kind of say, “Maybe, I don’t really have time. I’m not sure.” And they don’t actually say a firm no. And that kind of leaves the door open for someone to come in and push back and really try to get you to say yes. So they’re more likely to try to convince you to change your mind if you’re not being confident in your no. So you want to be clear, concise and confident when saying no. So for example, you would say, “I’m not going to be able to meet you for coffee this week.” Thank you for the invitation. Boom – done. You don’t need to explain why you’re saying no. You don’t need to pretend like you might try to reschedule another time if you really have no intention of doing that. Simply say no and let it be. So that’s the fifth step is to be short and confident in your no.