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K: Welcome back to another episode of Bitch Popaganda, I’m Kelsey Wallace, web editor at Bitch and today with me are:
M: Mac Pogue, the new media intern
A: Andi Zeisler, the editorial/creative director
K: And today we’re going to talk about the golden age of male objectification--are we in it—The New Girl, a new series on Fox starring Zooey Deschanel, and Miss Universe, or why are we even still talking about beauty pageants at all. So, let’s start with male objectification. Joe Reed had an article in New York Magazine this week called “Are We Living in the Golden Age of Male Objectification?” He says that “the summer of 2011 officially became the summer that the male gaze was reflected back at itself, with enthusiasm.” So his thesis being that everywhere we look this summer, on TV, in movies, we’re seeing a lot of beefcake—more than ever before. So why don’t we just start with do you think that’s true? Does this summer strike you as beefier than past summers have been?
A: Not really, I think, you know, this is a little bit of a specious argument. I think if we’re seeing more of it, it’s that we’re seeing more media in general. I don’t necessarily think that male objectification is on the upswing. I just think there’s more pop culture, there’s more movies, there’s more TV, there’s more ad campaigns, and there’s a 24-hour news cycle and a 24-hour blog cycle that requires that people process this stuff. Everyone wants to make some sort of grand statement about it—I don’t know, maybe there’s an increased awareness of the amount of male beefcake. If you consider that People magazine’s “Sexiest Man Alive” contest has been going on for more than a couple decades and lots of other, sort of, male pulchritude, celebration. This isn’t really that new.
M: I kind of think that while maybe the objectification of males isn’t totally new, I think especially with the superhero movies coming out, there’s this total narrative of the chump to the superstar going on, and these movies are in a way sort of reappropriating the male gaze and pointing it at the men themselves. So in the girl, the guy quoted the Captain America, he goes from some—did you guys watch the trailer?
A: Yeah he goes from some unfit for command to this total beefed out—
M: --hulking man. And everyone’s doing the same sort of head turns that you see in like, 13 Going on 30.
A: Well, then again, wasn’t this supposed to take place in the 1940s? They weren’t used to seeing the dudes in tights.
K: Yeah, I have to say, it might just be the increased media coverage in general that I’m sure is a factor. But I do think, maybe it’s because I watch True Blood, I think that personally, the media that I’ve consumed in say, the past 6 months, has contained more shirtless dudes.
A: COuldn’t that just be a function of the season? Summer movies are pretty much known for being strictly eye candy.
K: Yeah, I guess so. True Blood is a standout of a kind of, I would call a blatant objectification of shirtless dudes. Especially with, if anyone watches it, with Eric and Alsey with the hip bones—
A: --the pelvic bone dance-off
K: I don’t know if it’s fair to call that a media trend, though. I mean, that just might be one show where everyone is pretty much naked most of the time. But, especially the guys.
A: But it does also have to do with the fact that, you know, in cable and in media in general there’s certainly this race to see who can be the most provocative without actually crossing any lines. So True Blood, it’s there in the plot, like werewolves do apparently have to take their pants off to become werewolves. It’s written in, but you know, I do think that people have to find ways to compete. And when I say people I mean networks and writers of these shows. But then, also, the phrase “Golden Age” is a little misleading.
K: I agree.
M: Yeah.
A: Because that sort of seems to suggest if it’s a golden age of male objectification it’s no longer a golden age of female objectification which is patently false. So what are they trying to say by using that language?
K: I think what he’s trying to say, and I’d be interested to see if anyone bought this argument, is that it’s a sort of “good for the goose, good for the gander.” Like we’ve achieved some semblance of progress because we’re treating men like pieces of meat like we’re treating women like pieces of meat, forever. To me, I don’t think that treating men and women equally shitty is the type of progress that I want to see. On the other hand, do you think that somebody being objectified, let’s say Ryan Gosling in Crazy Stupid Love, he’s very much put on display in a tongue-in-cheek like “look at this shirtless guy” way. Do you have a problem with that, even as a thing, you know?
A: I have a problem with people in general treated as though they are there for other people’s consumption.
K: I guess more of what I was getting at is like, do you think that that’s what’s happening with him, or men in general, or do you think that beefcake male gaze turned on men is different is when it’s turned on men than when it’s turned on women.
A: Well, also, I mean, I’m not going to answer the question because now that brought up the idea of the male gaze turned on men isn’t really appealing to the female gaze. I guess this is an interesting question, too. Is it really for-the-male gaze, or is it supposed to be appealing-to-the-female gaze. Because if we say it’s a for-the-male gaze that opens up a couple of possibilities, one that more movie studios are acknowledging that not everyone is heterosexual and, for instance, gay men might be a really big market for, like, superhero movies. Just as they were a huge market for Jackass. That was a huge cult hit for gay men. There are a lot of shirtless men in Jackass—and that’s not the only reason why gay men would watch it. But that was part of it. And what does it mean, does it mean anything if it’s specifically for male-gaze focused, or female-gaze focused or is there any way to know?
K: Well, I wonder too if there could be some argument to be made that it’s male-gaze focused because Hollywood is capitalizing on male insecurities in this idea. And we’ve got a blog series running right now called “Isn’t He Lovely” about beauty myths as they apply to men. This idea that “hey, guess what, men are insecure about their bodies also” and we can get men’s attention by showing a sort of idealized male form—hairless, built up, you know, dressed a certain way and we can play on those insecurities the same way we’ve been playing with women’s insecurities for a long time.
M: I feel like what this writer doesn’t touch is the role of power in the objectification, and if it is for-the-male gaze the male gaze appropriates and objectifies the female as a subordinate role, but what they’re doing here, like in Captain America, he’s clearly something to emulate and he’s a role model. If they’re using the male gaze on the male form here then it’s for a different end, really. It’s for glorifying the dominance of the object rather than, you know, you know like the male gaze in Transformers with Megan Fox, who refused to do the third one because of Michael Bay’s disgusting use of the male gaze. But she’s always behind Shia Lebouef, who’s kind of a weirdly muscled out kid now.
K: He’s kind of weird now.
M: He’s grown up.
A: Let’s not get sapped, that could go on for a while.
K: I think Megan Fox is a good example of somebody who’s been objectified to the extreme, to the point where no matter how. People are like “oh.” We’ll talk about this when we talk about beauty pageants in a little bit more. If somebody looks this way and they’re capitalizing, it’s like, “why not, it’s a free country?” There’s a limit for everyone, even if you’re considered the hottest woman in America, she’s just like “enough is enough, this is gross.”
A: Right, I do think it’s interesting that there, that people have been taking notice of this as though it’s a new trend when we all know it’s really not a new trend, there might just be more of it. But I guess, just getting back to the golden age part of it, that implies that we’re supposed to think of this as like, we’re sort of beyond, somehow as a society we’ve progressed beyond analyzing. I think this writer’s positing it as a golden age where we can sit back and let the pecs, shaven chests just wash over us. I feel like that’s certainly a dangerous point of, like, complacency to be encouraging. Because then we’re sort of de facto being complacent about it, for women too.
K: Right, well even celebrating, so many of the comments on the article, I mean he even ends his piece with saying “how is that not progress?” This idea that it’s objectification for all, how is it progress? I do feel like it’s kind of dangerous to give this a thumbs up, and I feel like it’s irresponsible and it’s like, finally, everyone’s just—
A: I feel like that it buys into a really insidious and really long-standing form of what people believe to be equality. It’s sort of like when people forward those emails that are like “a hundred reasons why cats are better than men!” They think that because I’m a feminist I’m really going to enjoy it. I think that’s a much more widespread equation we realize where people are like “oh, well, cool, men should totally be objectified.” They’re on board with that when they’re not really think of the flip side.
K: Alright, well, let’s move on to our next topic: The New Girl which premieres on Fox on September 20, but the pilot was released ahead of time to get people like us talking about it. So it’s a sitcom that stars Zooey Deschanel and three dudes, and she’s clearly at the front of all the promotional materials for the show. She’s an awkward girl who’s been dumped who looks for a new living situation and ends up living with three guys and hijinks ensue! We watched the pilot, what did you think?
M: I was made really uncomfortable in some parts. It was kind of funny, but just some of the douchebaggery, I’ll say, centering around the jar, that whenever they say something blatantly offensive, misogynist, racist, they put money in the jar.
K: This is the roommates.
A: This is called the “Douchebag Jar.” The show is acknowledging it’s own douchiness.
M: But it also plays up the douchiness more for the laughs than for any sort of educational value. Like, in the end, when the guy says, reaffirms, that even though Zooey Deschanel is his roommate that he would totally boner, he puts a dollar in the douchebag jar but I still expected the studio audience, if there was one, was there?
K: I don’t think so, but it was still a waka-waka moment, like, “aah!” Like, maybe she shouldn’t be living in a situation where three guys are talking about here. Yeah, I guess, although we’re already being set up for the other white guy roommate.
A: I hate when shows cast two people who look way too much alike.
K: Not the douchebag, the bartender, I can feel we’re already being set up for a will-they-won’t-they dynamic between Zooey Deschanel and him, so I feel like, that makes two out of three rommates that are interested. Although he was much less creepy. Andi, what did you think?
A: I like Zooey Deschanel, I know she’s sort of a polarizing figure among a lot of people who monitor pop culture, she’s got sort of a one-note, charming, twee—I think the show is calling it her “adorkable” personality. I don’t know why I like her. This show points out to me that we can’t, much like the real life people we fall in love with, we really can’t control the celebrities we have soft spots for. My feeling is like, this to me might be the thing that I like Zooey Deschanel the most in, because it’s not an indie movie. It’s not sort of trying to appeal to this sort of “more-alternative-than-thou.” It’s like, here’s a girl that is seriously dorky and it’s a sitcom and it’s got this kind of Mary Tyler Moore “that girl” thing--
K: Including the theme song, which was performed by Zooey Deschanel.
A: Exactly. And that in itself is like meta-consciousness, like she makes up a them song for herself that is the theme song for the show, and the male rommates acknowledge how sad and precious and ridiculous it is, but it’s still there. So, you know, I’m not really sure how much is really discernable by the pilot, but I liked it and I’m certainly going to keep watching it.
K: I think it’s interesting that you pointed out that it’s Zooey Deschanel in a vehicle that’s not necessarily targeting an “indier-than-thou,” street-cred obsessed audience, but they’re going for that audience a little bit. We also read a profile of Zooey Deschanel called “the Pinup of Williamsburg” by Jada Yuan, also in New York Magazine, that was talking about how Zooey Deschanel is going to New York for the show and targeting, maybe, demographics that wouldn’t necessarily watch Fox sitcoms. But still, it’s probably the first time I’ve seen her in clothing that looked just off-the-rack to me, instead of vintage. You, just kind of schlepping around on the couch, like watching Dirty Dancing instead of, you know, an Antonioni film or something. And I appreciated that, because it kind of removed some of the trappings—I like Zooey Deschanel, too, but there’s stuff about her that irks me maybe because I like her and I don’t like that it has to be about appealing to this, like, fantasy of a girl who can’t just look the way she looks and seem like a really nice cool person, she also has to have these interests that come along with it. And I do believe Zooey Deschanel genuinely has those interests but I don’t think that every character she plays has to have that. So I like that this character seems like a little bit freed from that, you know? I think it fell into a lot of tropes, you know, sitcom tropes. Already the dynamic with the roommate, I felt really creeped out by the part where Zooey Deschanel’s supermodel best friend comes over and all the guys are just staring at her, and it’s just like, one thing to show them as heterosexual guys, we get it that they like women, but I felt like it went too far. That being said, you know, preciousness aside or maybe because of it, I’m going to watch the episode. I was more charmed by it than I thought I would be. I went into it pretty skeptical, I thought it was going to be cheesy and annoying. I think I was pleasantly surprised, if not blown away.