Military Police Complaints Commission
FYNES PUBLIC INTEREST HEARINGS
held pursuant to section 250.38(1) of the National Defence
Act, in the matter of file 2011004
LES AUDIENCES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIQUE SURE FYNES
tenues en vertu du paragraphe 250.38(1) de la Loi sure la
défense nationale pour le dossier 2011004
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
held at 270 Albert St., Ottawa, Ontario
on Tuesday, May 15, 2012
mardi le 15 mai 2012
VOLUME 22
BEFORE:
Mr. Glenn Stannard Chairperson
Ms Raymonde Cléroux Registrar
APPEARANCES:
Ms. Dana Cernacek Commission counsel
Ms Beth Alexander
Mr. Rob Fairchild
Ms Korinda McLaine For Sgt Jon Bigelow, MWO Ross Tourout,
LCol Gilles Sansterre, WO Blair Hart, PO 2 Eric McLaughlin,
Sgt David Mitchell, Sgt Matthew Alan Ritco, Maj Daniel Dandurand,
Sgt Scott Shannon, LCol Brian Frei, LCol (ret=d) William H. Garrick
WO (ret=d) Sean Der Bonneteau, CWO (ret=d) Barry Watson
Col (ret=d) Michel W. Drapeau For Mr. Shaun Fynes
Mr. Joshua Juneau and Mrs. Sheila Fynes
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(ii)
INDEX
PAGE
SWORN: SERGEANT ELIZABETH DIANNE WEIR 1
Examination in Chief by Ms. Cernacek 1
Cross examination by Col. (Ret=d) Drapeau 33
Cross examination by Ms McLaine 37
Further Cross examination by Col (Ret=d) Drapeau 38
SWORN: MASTER WARRANT OFFICER REMI MAINVILLE 39
Examination in Chief by Ms Cernacek 39
Cross examination by Col. (Ret=d) Drapeau 97
Cross examination by Ms McLaine 107
Reexamination by Ms Cernacek 114
(iii)
LIST OF EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
P78 Witness book index for Sergeant Weir 1
P79 Witness book index for Master Warrant Officer Mainville 1
126
Ottawa, Ontario
Upon resuming on Tuesday, May 15, 2012
at 9:33 a.m.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
MS CERNACEK: Good morning. We have two witnesses today, and before that, we have two new exhibits to enter. Witness book index for Sergeant Weir.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P78.
EXHIBIT P78: Witness book index for Sergeant Weir
MS CERNACEK: And the witness book index for Master Warrant Officer Mainville.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P79.
EXHIBIT P79: Witness book index for Master Warrant Officer Mainville
MS CERNACEK: We are ready to proceed with Sergeant Weir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed. Good morning, Sergeant Weir, and welcome.
THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.
SWORN: SERGEANT ELIZABETH DIANNE WEIR
EXAMINATIONINCHIEF BY MS CERNACEK:
Q. Good morning, Sergeant.
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A. Good morning.
Q. As a way of introduction to your testimony, could you please take us through your background in the military.
A. I joined the military in 2001. On completion of basic training, I was posted to Gagetown in the MPSS, which is like a headquarters in Gagetown near Moncton. In 2002, I was posted to Saint John, New Brunswick as recruiting clerk in the recruiting centre.
2006, I was posted to LdSH. Joining LdSH in July and August, I went on and started deployment training to go to Afghanistan. I was in Afghanistan from February 2007 till September 2007. Then came back, and from one squadron, I went to the other squadron, the headquarter squadron.
Q. Do I understand when you came back from Afghanistan in September 2007, then you were posted in the headquarters squadron.
A. I had been on leave. I would have been on probably like 21 days, so I'm not quite certain exactly what date I went to the headquarters squadron.
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Q. You were posted in the headquarters squadrons in what capacity?
A. I was one of the clerks there.
Q. There is a document that has been distributed that is not included in the book that is mainly to ascertain the timing of when you were with the headquarters squadron.
A. Okay.
Q. This document is entitled "CF Leave Request Authorization," so a leave request authorization for Corporal Langridge. There is a stamp which says "People Soft Actioned." Could you tell us about that?
A. When that was received, then it goes into a program where everybody's leave is calculated and they know at the end of the year how much leave they have left, how much leave they used. This would go into that program so then it's stamped saying that it's entered that that program.
Q. Do you recognize the initials there?
A. Yes, that's mine.
Q. "DB" stands for?
A. At that time, it was Dianne Birt. I was a Birt at the time.
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Q. That would mean since it's dated the 5th of December 2007 that by that date, you were already a clerk within the HQ squadron, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you take us through your duties and responsibilities as the headquarters squadron clerk?
A. As the headquarters squadron clerk, we had a lot of members that used to go between one squadron to another depending on who they needed required to take from a headquarters squadron to another squadron to train for deployment.
At the time, LdSH had squadrons coming in and squadrons going out. With the headquarters squadron, it would have been any pay that members had, any administration issues. We helped out with travel if they were going on courses. We would book flights, we would start the claims like the travel claims for whatever they can claim for this trip. When they come back, we would finalize them. We do paperwork for promotion, leave passes, yes.
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Q. Just to come back to the time line perspective, so until when did you stay within the headquarters squadron as a clerk?
A. From when I went in there in December? I was there till I was posted in 2010. It would have been, I think, August 2009 I got posted to 1 CER, the engineer regiment.
Q. During that time, did you ever meet Corporal Langridge or did you ever talk to him?
A. No, not that I recall.
Q. Do you know during that time until his death in which squadron was Corporal Langridge affiliated with?
A. He was with the headquarters squadron.
Q. Were you aware, without knowing him personally, of his circumstances?
A. No.
Q. How do the clerks keep track the clerks or someone else for that matter of who is on a given moment within the headquarters squadron?
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A. We would have a nominal roll done up. That nominal roll would be the individual's names, address, phone numbers, that pertinent information, but also their supervisor there is a sergeant that has another program. It's called Monitor Mass.
In that program, he would know exactly where they are at. He would have the same information that we would have, so if there were any changes to a nominal roll or anything, if the member didn't tell us, he would let us know if he knew.
Q. Who updates the nominal roll?
A. One of the clerks within the squadron.
Q. How many clerks are there?
A. Normally there are two in each one. I think at the time I was there, there was three.
Q. Could you explain to us how the work is dealt with between or was dealt with between the three of you? Was there any supervisory role that was assigned to one of you? Was there any followup when one of the clerks did something, for instance, updating a nominal roll? Did the other clerks know about it? How did that work, the divisional work between you three?
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A. We were busy at that time. It was a really busy period. People would have been coming off a Christmas leave. People are entitled to go home to the next of kin for travel over Christmas so we would have been finalizing claims.
So it would be more or less whatever is there to do. We would all pick at it and do it.
Q. How did you know who was doing what and how did you divide the work?
A. One person would work on claims. Somebody else would work on PEN forms or the other administration that we have, and somebody would look after leave.
Q. How did you know what time was done amongst you three?
A. Just talking about what we have done, yes. I was more or less the gobetween between the junior clerks and the chief clerk.
Q. And the junior clerks, are you referring to the clerks working with you?
A. Yes.
Q. You were not a chief clerk and not a junior clerk.
A. No, I was like an inbetween.
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Q. Who was your superior?
A. Warrant Officer Doucette.
Q. How did you report to her? What was her supervisory relationship with you based on? How did it happen on a daily basis?
A. If we needed something, I would go up to her and see her in her office or I would email her or I would phone her.
Q. What would you do when you had questions about anything regarding your work?
A. Same thing. I would go to Warrant Doucette. If I didn't know something or the clerks had a question that I didn't know or they didn't know, we could go see Warrant Doucette.
Q. What about your relationship with the chain of command?
A. Okay.
Q. Besides chief clerk. Was there any supervisory role between the chain of command and yourself?
A. Our administration officer.
Q. Who would have been...
A. I think at that time it was Lieutenant Douglas.
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Q. Was that the administration officer for the headquarters squadron?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Between Lieutenant Douglas and the chief clerk, what was the difference between their supervisory roles?
A. The chief clerk was everything to do with clerk. The administration office was administration in the headquarters squadron, whether it be planning trips or planning ranges, things like that. I couldn't exactly tell you what an administration officer does.
Q. So in what circumstances would you come into contact with him?
A. If we need any forms signed, if he needed pers files to look at, if he needed to track down if somebody was on a course and what course it was, things like that.
Q. Do you remember whether, then, Captain Volstad was also with headquarters squadron?
A. Yes.
Q. What would have been his involvement with your work?
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A. He was the 2 i/c, so he would be I wouldn't be going directly to him, I would go through the AO, but he can do the exact same thing. He can sign things, he can request files, he can ask us to look up things for him.
Q. You mentioned the database that was there to keep track of everyone that was in the headquarters squadron. I believe you name it a nominal roll?
A. A nominal roll.
Q. Yes. Was there a difference between this and the pers files?
A. No, there shouldn't be, but if there is something changed and somebody doesn't tell us, then a nominal roll is not going to be correct.
Q. Do I understand correctly from what you are telling us IS that there is correspondence between the information in the pers files and the nominal roll?
A. If it's correct, if the information is correct.
Q. What was your responsibility and duties as a clerk of the squadron with respect to the pers files?
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A. If anything that had to be filed, if somebody went on a course, promotions, paperwork that had to be filed, I would file them on the pers file, keep them all uptodate.
Q. What about the updating of the documents in the personnel file?
A. They would have been updated in this HRMS or PeopleSoft is what it's called, and then they would be filed to the file.
Q. In what circumstances would the pers files be updated?
A. As in? I don't quite understand.
Q. When
A. When would
Q. When there would be an update to a pers file?
A. When we would look at one or
Q. Basically I'm trying to find out when would you look at one.
A. When I had to file something or I was looking for something on a person.
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Q. Besides a specific search for something that you just mentioned, would there be other circumstances, for instance, like review or updating of documents where you would look at the pers file or other instances?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you take us through that? Can you explain how it works?
A. There is a PRV, it's a Personnel Readiness Verification, that we can do, and on that, the member comes to us and we go through everything on his pers file, the documents and that just to verify that everything is still correct and updated.
Q. Who brings this up? How does this occur?
A. That would be somebody else. A clerk can't decide when to have a PRV because it's the tempo of what the regiment is in at the time and the squadron is in, so it would have to be somebody higher to say, "This is the days that we are going to do PRVs."
Q. In the circumstances that you were in in 2007, 2008, who would that have been?
A. I'm not quite sure. It could have been the CO, it could have been an OC. I know it wouldn't have been a clerk that decided when to do a PRV.