Narrator-Socrates: 1 at This Point , Adeimantos Took up the Discussion and Said

Book 4



Narrator-Socrates: 1 At this point , Adeimantos took up the discussion and said ,



Adeimantos: What then , O Socrates , will be your defense , if someone shall say that



you do not make these brave souls very spiritually-well-off , and that this state of affairs exists



through their own doing , and through which on the one hand , the city really exists , yet on the

’

other hand , theytake no goodadvantageof the city , such as those others do , who possess land ,



and who have built , beautiful and large homes , and who purchase , suitable furniture



for their homes , and offer sacrifices the gods and entertain guests , all , at their own expense ,



and who certainly , do possess that which you were just now mentioning , gold and silver , 

and everything else , that is thought customary for those who intend to be blessed ?



But one may simply say that , like hired mercenaries , they show nothing for it , other than

’

to be employed as guards in the city .



Socrates: (thenI said) Yes , and this , indeed only for their maintenance , without receiving any

’

wages in addition to their maintenance , just as all others do . So that they will not be allowed

’

to travel abroad privately , should they so wish ; nor to give presents to their mistresses , nor

’ ’

to spend it in such other methods in which those who are considered to be spiritually-well-off ,



surely do spend . You are omitting , these and many other such counts , from the accusation .



Adeimantos: (to which he then said) Then , let these counts , also be added to the accusation .

’’

Socrates: You ask then , what we shall indeed say in our defense ?

b 

Adeimantos: Yes I do .

 .

Socrates: (then I said) While we travel on in the same course , we shall discover , as I imagine ,



that which should be said . For we shall say , that on the one hand , it would be nothing strange



if They Themselves , even in these circumstances , areThe Most-Spiritually-Well-Off ,



Yet it was certainly not with an eye to this , that we established the city ; so as to have any one



class , remarkablyProsperous ; but on the other hand , that The Whole City , especially be So .

’ 

For we thought , that in the establishment of Such a City , we would especially discover Fairness ,



and in turn , in the worst city ; injustice . Then , having thoroughly examined them , we would

c

determine , that which we have been in search of , for some time . Now then , since we thought ,



on the one hand , that we were shaping The Spiritual-Well-Beingof The City , by not taking-out



such a select few living in Her ; but we are setting-up The Spiritual-Well-Being of The Whole ;

’ 

then , immediately consider the opposite case . Therefore , just as if , while we were painting



human figures , someone approaching should blame us , saying that we do not place the



most beautiful colors on the most beautiful parts of the creature ; for the eyes , the most-beautiful



part , were not painted with purple , but were so with black ; should we then consider it to be

d ’

reasonably justified , to reply to him , ‘O wonderful one , do not expect us to paint



the eyes so beautiful , so that they would not appear to be eyes ; nor in turn with reference to

’

all the other parts . But observe , whether in assigning each particular part , what is Proper to it ,

’ 

we make The Whole Beautiful . And so now , please do not compel us to bestow such a notion of



‘spiritual-well-being’ upon The Guardians , since that notion shall make them anything , rather



than Guardians . For we could also clothe the farmers in rich robes and adorn them with gold

e 

and command them to work the soil , at their pleasure ; and we could also make , the potters



recline on couches , from left to right (like cultured people do) by the fire , drinking toasts and



feasting , neglecting the wheel , making pottery only , when so disposed : and



we also know how to make all the others citizens ‘blessed’ in such way ,



in order to surely render the whole city ‘spiritually-well-off’ ?

 

But do not advise us to act in such a way ; since , if we would be persuaded by you ,

’

then neither would the farmer be a farmer , nor the potter be a potter ; nor would any other



Art , keep Its own form (whole-some) , out of which The (Whole) Citycomes to be .



But , on the one hand , as to the others , it is of less account ; for when shoemakers become



corrupted and are defective , and pretend to be shoemakers when they are not , nothing terrible



happens to the city : but on the other hand , when the guardians of the law and of the city ,



are not so , but only in appearance , surely you see that they would entirely destroy The Whole

City ; if in turn they solely have the privilege of being ‘well-situated’ and ‘spiritually-well-off’ . 

If then , on the one hand , we are for producing Those who shall Truly BeGuardians of The City ,

b 

who shall be the least harmful to It , but on the other hand , he who makes that accusation ,

’ 

would rather produce them , just as certain farmers , living in a perpetual festive setting , feasting



‘happily’ , but not in TheCity ; in that case , he must mean , something else than ‘City’ . ’

Therefore , we must consider whether we establish the guardians with this view ; that they



should have that which is thought to be ‘the greatest happiness’ ; or must we see whether , on the 

one hand , we establish Them , with this in view ; that The Whole City should possess That



Spiritual-Well-Being , and on the other hand , let us oblige These Allies and Guardians

’ 

to Do That , and we must persuade Them , that They shall , in this way , BeThe BestArtists

c 

of Their Own Particular Work ; and in a similar manner for all the other artists .



And , in this way , by The Entire CitySucceeding , and BeingWell-Constituted , let us allow



each of the classes to Participate of Spiritual-Well-Being as far as their natures allow .



Adeimantos: 2 (to which he then said) Thus you seem to me , to speak well .

’’

Socrates: (then I said) Take notice then , shall I also appear to you , to speak reasonably ,

’’

in that which is akin to this ?



Adeimantos: What , especially ? ( ;)

Socrates: Consider if other artists are corrupted by the following , in turn ,

d 

so as to also come to be defective .



Adeimantos: What is their nature then ? ( ;)

Socrates: (then I said) Wealth and poverty . (’

Adeimantos: In what way then ? ( ;)

Socrates: In the following way . Does it appear to you , that the potter would still be willing



to pay-attention to his art , once having become wealthy ?



Adeimantos: (he said) By no means .(

Socrates: But will he become more idle and careless than he was before ?



Adeimantos: Much more so . ( .)

Socrates: Is it not the case then , that he will become a defective potter ?



Adeimantos: (he said) Much more so , likewise . ( .)

Socrates: And surely , through poverty , by also being unable to furnish himself with tools , or



indeed anything else required for his art , both his workmanship shall be more deficiently done ,

e

and his sons , or those others whom he instructs , shall be artists instructed deficiently .



Adeimantos: How could they not be ? (’ ;)

Socrates: Thus , through both these , poverty and riches , on the one hand , the workmanship in

’

the arts is done deficiently , and on the other hand , the artists themselves are defective .



Adeimantos: It appears so . ( .)

Socrates: Certainly then , as it appears , we have discovered other conditions , which



The Guardians must watch against , in every way , in such a manner that they may in no respect ,



steal into the city unnoticed .



Adeimantos: What kind of conditions are these ?



Socrates: (then I said) Wealth and poverty . Since the one is productive of luxury and idleness ,

’

and a love of novelty ; whereas the other , besides having a love of novelty , is illiberal ,



and productive of defective workmanship .



Adeimantos: (he said) Entirely so . However , consider the following case , O Socrates .



How shall our city be able to engage in war , since she possesses no money , anywhere ,

’

and especially if she is compelled to wage war against a great and wealthy city ?



Socrates: (then I said) It is clear , that to fight against one such city is rather difficult ,

b ’ , 

but on the other hand , to fight against two such cities is easy .



Adeimantos: (to which he then replied) What do you mean ? (’

Socrates: (I said) First of all , surely , if they must fight , will They not , being Themselves



Adept in The Art of War , be fighting against rich men ?



Adeimantos: (he said) Yes , this is indeed the case . ( .)

Socrates: (I said) What then , O Adeimantos ? Does appear to you , that the one boxer , who has



been provided for , in the best manner possible for this exercise , is easily able to fight against



two boxers who have not , but on the other hand , are rich and fat ?



Adeimantos: (he said) He would not perhaps , easily fight with both at the same time indeed .

’

Socrates: (then I said) Not if he had it in his power to retreat , and then return to strike the one

c ’

who advanced first , and by doing this frequently under the stifling heat of the sun , might not



indeed such a fighter , accordingly also defeat a multitude of those ?

’

Adeimantos: (he said) Forget about it , that would be nothing amazing .



Socrates: But do not you think that the rich have more knowledge and experience of boxing

’

than of war ?



Adeimantos: (he said) I do at least . (’.)

Socrates: Accordingly then , easily , will our Experts fight , with double and triple



their number , as it clearly appears .



Adeimantos: (he said) I will agree with you , for you seem to me to speak correctly .



Socrates: What then , if they should send an embassy to another city , telling them The Truth ,

d’ 

that ‘We on the one hand , have no use for gold or silver , neither is it lawful for us to use them , ’

but on the other hand , for you , it is lawful ; if then you join in the war with us , you will receive

’

the spoils of all the other cities .’ do you imagine that anyone , upon hearing these things ,



would choose to fight against strong and resolute dogs , rather than in alliance with the dogs ,



against fat and tender sheep ?



Adeimantos: (He said) It does not appear so to me . But consider if the accumulation of

’

the wealth of the others into onecity , does not bring danger to the city that has no wealth .



Socrates: (then I said) What ‘happiness’ , that you imagine any other city deserves to be

e ’

named city , other than Such a One as that which we have been Preparing/Furnishing .



Adeimantos: (he said) But why then ? (;)

Socrates: (then I said) We must give the other types a greater name ; for each of them consists of

’

very many cities , but is not a city , as it is said in jest . (Meno 77a-b : as when anything , like a



vessel is broken . ‘thus , leave Virtue , Whole and Sound’ . JFB) And if on the one hand ,



there are any two factions who are hostile to each other , as the poor and the rich , then , in

’

each of these , there are in turn , very many individuals , and to which , on the one hand , if you



deal with them as a singular entity, you will entirely miss the mark , but on the other hand , if you



deal with them as a plurality , by giving to them the property , power and indeed



the persons themselves of the other faction , you shall , continue to have many for fellow-fighters



but few for enemies . And so long as your City shall be Managed Soundly , as it was just now

’

Arranged , It shall be The Greatest . I do not say that It shall be reputed to be so , but It shall be

’

The Greatest , in Reality , and even though Its Defenders were only , one thousand . For One City



that is Great , in this way , you will not easily find , neither among the Hellenes nor among

b

the barbarians , but you will find , many of those that are reputed to be ‘great’ and many times



larger than So Great A One . Or do you think otherwise ?



Adeimantos: (he said) No by Zeus ! (, ’ .)

Socrates: 3 (then I said) Is it not the case then , that This may also be The Best Boundary/Limit

’

for our Rulers , as to The Necessary SizeThey must make The City , and of the territory



They must mark-off for It , in Proportion to Its Size , and forget about the rest ?



Adeimantos: (he said) What boundary ? ( ;)

Socrates: (then I said) I imagine , that on the one hand , They should allow It to grow , so long as

’

in this growth , The City continues‘To Be One’ , but not beyond This Limit .



Adeimantos: (he said) And beautifully so . (’ .)

Socrates: Is it not the case then , that we in turn also Assign this further Command upon c

The Guardians : To Guard , in every way , that The City neither be small nor appear to be great



in any way , but of a Sufficient Size , and One ?



Adeimantos: (he said) We shall indeed then , perhaps assign them , an easy one .

’ 

Socrates: (then I said) An even more easy assignment than this , is that which we also Aimed-at

’

in our previous discussion ; that it is mandatory , if any descendant of The Guardians be 

found defective , they must be sent-away to the other classes ; and in turn if any descendant of

’

the others be found worthy , they are to be sent to the rank of The Guardians . Hence , this

d’

was Intended to make Clear , that the other citizens , must also apply themselves to that



One Art , for which they have a Natural Talent , so that each and every person , by Preserving



their own Singularly Necessary Work , may not become many , but One ; and surely , in this way 

The Entire City , may Flower into One , but not many .



Adeimantos: (he said) This is indeed , more easy than the other .



Socrates: (then I said) These Assignments , O good Adeimantos , are not as one may imagine ,

’`

numerous and ponderous , that we command Them to do , but such as are all easy , if They Guard

e

One Grand Point , as the saying goes , or rather One which is Sufficient , instead of Grand .

’

Adeimantos: (he said) What is that ? ( ;)

Socrates: (then I said) Education and Nurture . For if , by being Well-Educated , They become

’

Reasonable people , they will easily see through all these considerations and other matters , such



as we indeed omit now , respecting both the acquisition of women and of marriages , and the



procreation of children . Because it is necessary that these matters be made entirely ,



proverbially , and especially , according to , “The Communion of Friendship” .



Adeimantos: (he said) For that would be most correct .

’

Socrates: (I said) And surely , if at one time , That Very Form of Government is set in motion



It will Proceed Well ; increasing just as a Circle . For as long as Good-Education and Nurture



are Preservedin a useful way , They ProduceGood-Natures ; and in turn , by Useful-Natures ,



receiving in turn such an Education, They will Flower into even Better-Natures than Those



before , as well as in other respects concerning propagation , just as in the case of other animals .

b

Adeimantos: (he said) It is indeed likely . (’  .)

Socrates: Moreover to speak concisely , it is to this , which The Caretakers of The City must



Firmly Adhere to , in such a way , that it may not , by escaping Their notice , bring destruction .



But above all things , They must guard against this itself : --- To not allow any innovations ---



in regards to Physical-training and Music , contrary to The Established Order of The City ,



but to especiallyGuard/Maintain It , in such a way as it exists ;being afraid , that when anyone

’

says that , ‘the song (music) is appreciated by mankind , even more’



which newest floats , from the singer’s lips ,

Odyssey 1 , 351

one should not frequently think , that the poet does not mean new songs , but a new method of

c

singing , and to be praising this . Therefore , such a novelty must neither be praised nor

’’

taken to be the poet’s meaning . For to change-over to a new form of music , w

must be Well-Guarded against , since that is wholly dangerous to The City . For as Damon



says, The Modes/Ways/Measures of Music must never be altered , without the greatest



political-enactment of Laws , and of which I am also convinced .



Adeimantos: (said) Thus , you may also place me , among those who are of that conviction .



Socrates: (then I said) 4 Surely it is here then ; in Music , that we must build ,

d’

The Watchtower for The Guardians , as it is Proper .



Adeimantos: (he said) For surely , such lawlessness itself , easily steals in without being noticed .



Socrates: (I said) Yes it does , by way of diversion/play , and as if having no part of mischief .



Adeimantos: (he said) For neither , does it indeed work/produce any other effect , than that



by becoming familiar , little by little , it quietly insinuates itself into their dispositions and 

their pursuits , then from these , into our associations with one another , it becomes greater ;