Staff Consultation Meeting – Greengates 9 July 2008

Name / Title / Initials
Lynda Richardson / Children’s Services manager, Dept for Children and Family Services (DCFS) / LR
Mike Marshall / Children’s Services Manager (DCFS) / MM
Jason Woodruff / HR Manager, dept. Corporate Resources (DCR) / JW
Victoria Meredith / Legal Adviser (DCR) / VM
Jenny Sweeny / Primary Project Manager, DCFS / JS
Lynne Bennett / School Organisation Officer, DCFS / LB
Harry Darby / InterimSchool organisation Manager, DCFS / HD
Andy Cocklin / Finance Officer/School Organisation, DCFS / AC

Presentation/background: Lynda Richardson/Mike Marshall

Q & A

Question/comment
Is there a timeline for the process?
LB
The timeline we had was for the original proposal. If this proposal is agreed the new timeline will start in Autumn, and will take about 12 months. If we have to go out to competition, the timescales will be longer - about 12 – 15 months.
Question/comment
When will the build start?
LR
The new build was scheduled to start in January 2009.
JS
A new timeline will have to be developed in light of any new proposal that is approved.
Question/comment
Hasn’t the process already started?
LR
We began the process for the original proposal. Based on feedback received, and new pupil data, a new proposal has now been put forward and we are now seeking your feedback on this proposal.
Question/comment
We’re losing pupils and that could make our school even more unviable. Can the proposals be reviewed again?
LR
The current proposal is seeking to address the projected falls in pupil numbers.
Question/comment
Will the process start on 1st September?
LR
If the proposal is approved, it will start some time in September. We’ll draw up a timeline once the proposal is agreed.
Question/comment
A few months ago, you said our numbers were fine, what’s changed?
MM
Last time we came the numbers weren’t fine. In fact one of the comments from staff was that the new school wouldn’t be full. Also parents have a choice about where to send their child.
Question/comment
You’re not making it easy for parents by changing the proposal.
LR
We have to consider the viability of the school in the long term and the needs across the area.
Question/comment
Is there a second proposal?
LR
No, but through the consultation, if any alternatives are submitted we will listen tofeedback and consider them.
Question/comment
Would you listen? When it was Roseheath and New Hutte you didn’t listen.
LR
We do have to listen. The Cabinet makes the decisions based on information and feedback.
Question/comment
Is there a deadline for spending the £6.5M?
LR
Yes there is, and we are under pressure because of that, but we discussion any changes to proposals and timescales with the DCSF.Also, this is Pathfinder funding so it’s important to get the right proposal.
Question/comment
If the school becomes a joint faith school will we have the same employer?
JW
The employer won’t be the Local Authority if the proposal is agreed. The employer will be the Archdiocese and Diocese jointly, so Greengates staff won’t be able to transfer. In effect all 3 staff groups will have to apply for jobs.
Question/comment
Is it because we’re not Catholic that we can’t transfer?
JW
No, Greengates, St Marks and Southern staff will be in the same position. The temporary governing body will determine a new staffing for leadership and management and the staffing structure.
Question/comment
People who work in Catholic schools have Catholic teaching certificates; people who work in special schools have specialist knowledge; we don’t have that and will be at a disadvantage.
LR
Can I just clarify that it’s not a Catholic school that is being proposed. There won’t be a requirement that every member of staff will need a Catholic teaching certificate.
Question/comment
When we met with Damian, the community element of the proposal was stressed, so this is quite a surprise.
LR
The Anglican places are also offered to the community. So the school will be joint Catholic / Anglican with community places. This increases choice and diversity in the local community.
So there will be 25 catholic places and 25 for community?
CW
Numbers are not confirmed yet but it will be divided equally.
Question/comment
How will it affect our conditions of service?
JW
The terms and conditions of service will be the same.
Question/comment
Are you saying that Greengates will close and there will be another school?
LR
Yes
Question/comment
Have St Andrew’s got surplus places?
CW
No, St Andrew’s is full at the moment.
NB. The Future Schooling in Knowsley document provides information on surplus places in schools at the time of publication.
Question/comment
Previously there was a proposal to amalgamate St Andrews and Halewood CE but this didn’t happen.
CW
St Andrew’s and Holy Family do not have surplus places. In terms of other configurations, that is what you have the opportunity to put forward.
Question/comment
When Mackets closed the staff in Mackets had to find other jobs. Why can’t St Mark’s close and the children come to Greengates?
VM
It depends on the category of school and whether the new school has been chosen on grounds of belief. St Mark’s is Catholic and it is doubtful whether parents would send their children to a community school. That is why we are proposing a joint faith school - because it will cater for all.
CW
It is a model used successfully elsewhere. Here it’s seen as a creative way of addressing surplus places in the area. If parents have chosen to send a child to a faith school, they will more readily transfer their child to another faith school, albeit joint faith, rather than community. How we legislate for parental choice is very difficult.
Question/comment
What are the financial implications for the church, i.e. from 1 FE to 1.5FE?
JS
There is an affordability gap and a group is currently considering that issue.
CW
We are starting to have discussions about funding. One of the funding streams is Primary Capital funding. If this new school is established it will come under the standard regulation, which states that 10% of the cost of the build will be met by the VA authorities.
LR
But the LA is aware of the funding gap and plans are being developed toaddress this.
Question/comment
How will the number of staff be decided?
JW
There will be a temporary governing body representing the 3 donating schools and the 2 diocesan bodies. This is already being scoped because of the old proposal.
Question/comment
What is the constitution of the temporary governing body?
LR
A response will be provided to the school by governor support staff.
Question/comment
If St Mark’s children want to transfer to St Andrew’s can they do that?
LR
There is a protocol around mid term transfers for admissions, but essentially they can apply for a place.
Question/comment
What does the Council feel about people transferring their children from Knowsley to Liverpool schools?
LR
Yes, it is a concern.
JW
When we’ve got a 21st century building Liverpool children will want to come here.
.
Question/comment
If we knew how many surplus places there were across the area we could plan for it.
LR
All the details are in the FSK document.
Question/comment
Our parents were promised a brand new school and it’s not being delivered.
Why can’t they extend the other schools?
LR
We are still proposing to build a new school; we cannot build a school that is not viable so that is why we have brought forward this proposal.
Question/comment
What about the childcare provision on the school site?
LR
We have to be clear that this is about the school, so discussions about other provision on the school site would come later depending on the outcome of the consultation and future proposals. The LA Eyrs lead has met with the childcare providers to explain this..
Comment
Parents that send their child to wrap around care are more likely to come here.
Question/comment
Obviously there are going to be redundancies. Does the Church pay redundancy to St Mark’s staff?
JW
If there were any redundancies the LA would pay.
We’re working with secondary staff now to get a positive career outcome for them. There are 9 proposals for primary schools in the FSK report so we need to look across the whole primary and special sectors. If staff in any of the schools not affected by the proposals took voluntary redundancy it would create a vacancy for staff elsewhere. The LA is the employer of last resort.
Question/comment
What will happen to year 6 pupils if the school opens on 1 May 2010?
LR
There will be transitional arrangements but we wouldn’t want to disrupt year 6 children at such an important time.
Question/comment
Can you guarantee that there will be a new school regardless?
LR
The proposal is still for a new school.
There is a clear need for school provision in the area and this consultation is to help us decide what that provision will look like
Question/comment
The worst case scenario is that parents will vote with their feet, and a new school will become unviable. Will the LA lose the money?
LR
Currently we are keeping in contact with DCSF about our proposals and have not lost the money. .
Question/comment
Does St Mark’s need rebuilding?
CW
It’s not in a terrible state but it does need improvement.
Comment
People think that St Mark’s will just be refurbished.
Question/comment
In the other mixed faith school, do the Catholic teachers have the Catholic teaching certificate?
LR
It will be for the temporary governing body to agree on the staffing requirements in the new school but as a joint faith school not all teachers will require a Catholic teaching certificate.
Question/comment
Is there a percentage of teachers that have to be Catholic?
CW
No, but generally the headteacher will be Catholic.
Question/comment
How ethical do you think it was for the press to be told before the staff?
LR
We have challenged the Echo about that – As per an email which was sent to all Head Teacher colleagues on Wednesday 28th May. The Authority prepared press statements which were issued to the Echo and the Daily Post, these were not utilised and articles were published based on selected information taken from the cabinet report, the main strategy document and the press release. As result the articles included a number of inaccuracies.
VM
As I understand it, the Echo chose to go to print without referring to the LA. The press release was issued to the Daily Post, who chose not to run it. The Echo ran the story but picked out pieces if information.
Comment
That damaged our reputation, by stating that Greengates was underachieving.
LR
We are acutely aware of and regret the impact of the article.
Q
Won’t that influence the parents?
LR
You would hope that parents would make a decision based on facts.
Why hasn’t somebody from the LA countered it in the Echo?
LR
We have challenged the ECHO but they decide on the content that goes into their newspaper.
Question/comment
As a parent, the situation is that Roseheath closed and Greengates was promised a new school but nothing changes. I’m trying to encourage parents by telling them we’ll have a new building.

Governor Informal Consultation Meeting

GreengatesPrimary School

9th July 2008

Name / Title / Initials
Elaine Ayre / Quality Assurance Service Director (DCFS) / EA
Simon McEneny / Future Schooling Service Director / SM
Jason Woodruff / HR Manager, Dept. Corporate Resources (DCR) / JW
Jenny Sweeny / Primary Project Manager, DCFS / JS
Lynne Bennett / School Organisation Officer, DCFS / LB
Harry Darby / InterimSchool Organisation Manager, DCFS / HD
Andy Cocklin / Finance Officer/School Organisation, DCFS / AC
Chris Williams / Buildings Officer, Catholic Archdiocese / CW
Jon Richardson / Director of Schools, Church of England Diocese / JR
  1. Introductions
  1. Presentation by Elaine Ayre
  1. Q & A

Question/comment
Can we have the school organisation timetable please?
EA
We do not know when or if that will start. This is informal consultation and there has been no final decision made regarding this proposal. If the proposal is approved we can give you a clear timetable.
  1. During the consultation period who do we raise objections to?
LB
You can submit comments or objections to the school organisation department.
  1. When do we have to submit them again?
EA
During the representation period. But we will not reach the representation period unless cabinet make the decision to proceed and publish the statutory notice.
  1. We need clear instructions with dates.
EA
This is informal consultation to take your views into account. Sometimes proposals change. Cabinet will take these views into account and then they have to make a difficult decision.
  1. Who is on the Cabinet Board?
EA
Elected members.
  1. Does the Local Authority have a say?
EA
Only Cabinet.
  1. Is there representation from this local area?
Governor
There are 10 Cabinet members, none are from Halewood but all elected members receive the papers and can share their views.
JR
Scrutiny is also involved.
Question/comment
What happens if the competition waiver isn’t agreed?
EA
Then we would have to go through the competition process. We would have to invite alternative providers to come and run the school. Alternative providers can include businesses, charities, educational trusts and parent groups.
We have just published our first competition notice for a new school in the Northwood area in Kirkby. A seminar has been organised by independent consultants appointed by DCFS for alternative providers to find out more about the competition.
If the Local Authority enters the competition, then the Secretary of State will judge the competition. If we do not enter the competition, we will judge it.
JR
In this scenario, if the Secretary of State doesn’t approve the competition waiver, it’s likely that either or both of the Archdiocese and Diocese would submit a bid in the competition.
Question/comment
Will we lose the capital funding?
EA
We need to build a viable school. The project timescales were already tight.
Question/comment
It sounds as if you are selling our children’s education to anybody. I will take my child out of the borough.
EA
This is a national agenda and all LAs are subject to competition. It would be the best provider, not the lowest bidder.
Question/comment
Explain the figures please? St Mark’s are only taking 15 pupils per year but you need 25 so where are we going to get the rest from?
EA
The new school will be promoted to attract new pupils.
Comment
We should rebuild this school and promote it as a community school to attract new pupils and reduce the surplus.
AF
There would be a degree of flexibility in the admissions policy. It will not have to remain split 50 / 50. If the Catholic places are not full they will be accessible to the community and vice versa.
Comment
The nursery is full now. It has grown over the years. This school’s reputation has also improved. I think we will have sufficient numbers. This proposal has been put forward to help the Catholic sector.
EA
This proposal was a solution for both settings.
Question/comment
You say that the numbers have gone down. Then why was the current proposal not put forward originally, or when New Hutte and Roseheath closed?
EA
We’ve got no control over pupils moving elsewhere.
Comment
I’m not aware of a vast migration. Plantation has nearly 500 places, but still has surplus places. Something should have been done to ensure that this was a viable community school. Without this school there is no community school in the community. Plantation should have been capped. This school is suffering because of the expansion of Plantation school.
Comment
Other proposals in the FSK strategy document have dates attached, but there is no date for the removal of surplus places from Plantation.
Question/comment
What about St Andrew’s?
EA
St Andrew’s is a viable school. If you would like the numbers we can get them for you.
Question/comment
If this proposal is accepted where is the funding from?
EA
It’s still the pathfinder primary capital funding.
  1. When the school is open and running where is the funding from?
EA
It is allocated in the same way as now, according to pupil numbers.
Question/comment
What will be the composition of the TGB and final Governing Body?
EA
Regulations will be adhered to but all schools will be represented.
  1. We wanted 15 on the last TGB but 2 people joined last minute. Who makes the decision regarding the composition of the TGB and will they be from the schools?
EA
The Diocese, Archdiocese, Local Authority and schools will all be represented. The Local Authority will make a decision regarding the number.
Question/comment
We need to work with the Local Authority to develop timetables and dates.
EA
Please send all information before the 25th July 2008. We will submit it with a report to Cabinet. They will look at all feedback.
  1. When do cabinet meet?
EA
I do not have that information on me. All the information will go to Cabinet so that they can make an informed decision.
  1. So Cabinet may not agree to the proposal progressing?
EA
All the evidence from the 3 schools will be scrutinised.
Question/comment
Cap Plantation and make one school for St Andrew’s and St Mark’s. We do not want a faith school. I will take my children out if this proceeds.
Question/comment
How will it work in practice? Will the community children have a Catholic education?
JR
This would be the 7th joint faith school if this proposal goes ahead, so there is a track record We have to ensure that the R.E. syllabus reflects both churches and that it deals with all faiths. It is inspected by independent Catholic and Anglican inspectors
We have models that are tried and tested, so we do not have to start form scratch.
R.E. has moved on a lot. Communion takes place outside of school hours and are no longer part of the syllabus.
CW
There were concerns regarding the time spent on Communion. This is extra-curricular and parents choose to allow their child to make their Communion in the parish.
There were also concerns regarding segregation. The new school would be totally inclusive and all pupils would be taught together.
JR
There is no school mass at EmmausSchool. You would not even know who were the Catholic and who were the Anglican pupils. The new school would be a Christian school for the community.
Question/comment
If Inspectors come for both churches to examine the R.E. curriculum, doesn’t this put more pressure on staff?
JR
No because they only come to inspect R.E. to ensure that the offer is ok.
CW
It is an ‘in house’ inspection.
Question/comment
What about staff in relation to the faith aspect?
JR
Staff from all 3 schools would eligible. The jobs are ring-fenced. The TGB decides the staffing structure. Staff can be practising or none practising within the particular church.
JW
The whole Leadership and Management structure has got to be decided, particularly because staff from Southern Support have to be factored in, and it may be very different from a traditional model.
Question/comment
What about Mackets CountyPrimary
JW
That was a different situation.
AF
Holy Family remains Catholic.
EA
Holy Family is a very successful school serving the community.
Question/comment
What about staff morale?
EA
We are conscious about the history, the original proposal and now the change to that. We are trying to handle this sensitively.
Question/comment
We were just getting on our feet and now we have a new proposal.
I have major concerns about all of this change. I was a Governor of Roseheath and I had to watch all of the disruption the last time round. It is really depressing for the staff and pupils. Numbers will fall further as people will take their pupils out of the school.
As a Governing Body we are against this proposal. We supported the original proposal for the reasons outlined earlier and we would support that proposal now.
EA
Thank-you for your time today.

Parents Informal Consultation Meeting