The Conclusions of the VI meeting of the EUROSAI training committee Madrid, 5 July 2002
The EUROSAI training committee (ETC), consisting, according to the decision made in Madrid on 16 February 2000 by the governing board, of 8 members, namely Spain and France for the presidency, Portugal, United Kingdom, Czech Republic, Germany, Poland and Denmark, held a meeting in Madrid on 5 July 2002. According to the decision made by the governing board in Copenhagen on 7 March 2002, SAI of Lithuania attended this meeting as an observer. Due to the agenda, representatives of IDI, SIGMA-OECD, SAI’s of Hungary and of the Federation of Russia were also invited to attend this meeting1).
1. Welcome to participants, observers and invited guests
Mr Medina, member of the Spanish Tribunal de Cuentas, welcomed the participants, underlining the variety of training activities already covered within EUROSAI, and expressing the readiness of the Spanish SAI to support actively the next planned events, like the 3rd training event to be held in Prague in May 2003.
Mrs Fernandez Pirla welcomed Mrs Silvestra Šatkuviene and Mrs Danguolė Subačienė, the representatives of the SAI of Lithuania, who took part in the ETC for the first time, as well as the invited representative of SIGMA-OECD.
The following points were addressed:
2. Adoption of the conclusions of the Prague ETC meeting and adoption of the draft agenda:
The draft conclusions of the Prague ETC meeting were adopted. The draft agenda of the Madrid meeting was adopted.
3. Training activities:
3.1. EUROSAI – IDI co-operation: situation and prospects:
Mrs Kristensen and Mrs Geagea made a presentation on the current stage and next steps of the EUROSAI Long Term Regional Training Programme (LTRTP).
- Concerning the Phase I, aimed at SAI’s of the candidate countries, the Instructional Techniques Workshop (ITW) took place in Krakow, thanks to the hospitality of the Polish Supreme Chamber of Control, from 8 to 26 April 2002. All the participants who attended the CDDW in Prague were present, but two, who were replaced by auditors from the same SAI’s. The practicum segment of the workshop was devoted to financial audit. 22 participants received an IDI Training specialists diploma. 8 of them were selected as instructors for the Regional Audit Workshops (RAW), to take place this autumn and in 2003, either for Phase I or II. This instructional team will finalise the course in Oslo in July 2002. The first RAW will be held in Tallyn from 9 to 20 September 2002, on financial audit and fraud.
- Concerning the Phase II, aimed at SAI’s from the Balkan and eastern “non-candidate” countries, the first step will be a Strategic Planning Workshop, to be held in Croatia from 11 to 14 November 2002. Two RAW, the first one in English (in Cyprus, in February 2003), the second in Russian (place and date to be defined), with participation of instructors of the Phase I, will be organised to provide a common basis of skills and knowledge for participants of the Phase II2). The CDDW will be held in Bulgaria (dates to be determined).
The funding of the SPW - Phase II will be provided by the Norwegian government. Discussion are still under way for the funding of the remaining part of the Phase II. However, the Norwegian foreign ministry has already expressed a keen interest for funding a quite substantial part of the Programme.
a A CD-Rom and report on the ITW will be disseminated to members and observers of the ETC.
Once again, the presentation made by IDI representatives emphasised some of the obstacles to success identified by participants of the workshops, like the risk of non-utilisation of specialists in the SAI’s and in the region.
Mrs Danguolė Subačienė, representative of Lithunian SAI, who attended the CDDW and ITW of the Phase I, underlined the interest of the activities proposed, as well as the hard work made, in a very good atmosphere, during these workshops, with the help of a very professional team, and therefore the usefulness of this training programme at the national and regional level.
Mrs Eisnerova, representative of the SAI of the Czech Republic, indicated that the two Czech training specialists are already directly involved, within the SAI, in training projects.
Mr Treen, representative of SIGMA-OECD, witnessed, as a graduate of the LTRTP, the quite unique and valuable quality of this Programme, which could be very useful not only for SAI’s of CEEC, but, on a wider basis, for auditors from all EUROSAI members.
Mr Perron, representative of the SAI of France, observed that efforts are already made to use the skills of the training specialists both at the national level, like in the Czech republic, as well as the regional level, through their participation to the RAW’s. Beyond that, one of the purpose of the training strategy will be to secure a relevant utilisation of this human potential.
3.2. Training events:
a) Second training event: VFM Seminar in Budapest (18-20 September 2002):
Mr Halasz made a presentation on the current stage of preparation of the seminar. The expected level of participation is quite high, with 47 non Hungarian participants already registered, showing the attraction of the chosen topic. Including auditors from the Hungarian State Audit Office, the global audience of the seminar will be around 60. The final programme of the seminar was distributed. It will include, during the last day, a review of the seminar organised in March 2002 with the GAO of the United states.
a Materials for the seminar will be disseminated through participating SAI’s. Letters asking for contributions will be sent to this purpose.
a A link will be added on the EUROSAI training web site toward the Hungarian SAO web site to have access to the full documentation of the VFM seminar.
Mr Bedwell indicated that the preparation of this seminar was a very good example of genuine co-operation between the Hungarian and British SAI’s and thanked Mr Halasz for his personal efforts. Just as the IDI model of training, the VFM seminar will be a blend of presentation on up-to-date methodologies and case studies, to allow for practitioners to share their experience. During the day 3, an open forum is planned to let room for debate and discussion. This kind of seminars may give the opportunity to identify and build up a pool of subject-matters experts who may be used in co-operation with IDI.
b) Third training event: Evaluation of internal control in Prague (26-28 May 2003):
Mrs Eisnerova and Mr Michovsky made a presentation on the current stage of organisation of this seminar, prepared in co-operation between the SAI’s of Czech Republic and Germany. Since this topic is rather “hot” on the European scene, about 50 foreign participants are expected. The meeting venue will be in an new-built hotel in Prague. Just as the VFM seminar, this seminar will be practically oriented. It will comprise reflections on methodology and case studies (15-20 minute presentations, followed by discussion). It will also include reports and panel discussion of experts on evaluation of internal control both in member states and candidate countries.
Mrs Sorensen asked about wether there will be a maximum number of participants in future seminars. The attendees agrees on the principle that, as a rule, the number of participants from each country may be limited to two persons.
Mrs Fernandez Pirla expressed the readiness of the Spanish SAI to give an intellectual contribution to this seminar , through the presentation of a case study.
Concerning the funding of the seminar, the representatives of the Czech Republic SAI asked for more information on the conditions and ways of a financial contribution from EUROSAI, since the 2003 budget will give new possibilities for funding training activities. Mrs Fernandez Pirla indicated that the host of the seminar has to send an application to the general secretariat. It will be submitted to the ETC and then to the governing board, which will decide in accordance with the criteria attached to the budget.
Mr Halasz reminded that the chairmanship of the INTOSAI Working group on evaluation of internal control has been transferred to the SAI of Belgium during the last INCOSAI in Seoul. It could be useful to get in touch with this SAI to see if some co-operation with the Working group is feasible for the Prague seminar.
a Invitation letters to the third training event will be sent in September. They will be also available on the EUROSAI training web site.
a A meeting of experts will be held this autumn (?) for the preparation of the seminar.
a The SAI of the Czech Republic will apply for a contribution to the funding of this event. Since the newt governing board meeting is planned for October 2003, a written consultation of its members will be organised to allow a disbursement in due time.
a The SAI of the Czech Republic will enter into contact with the chairman of the INTOSAI WG on evaluation of internal control. A presentation of the INTOSAI WG activities could be included in the general introduction to the seminar.
a An IDI representative will be invited to the 2nd training event in Budapest as well as to the 3rd training event in Prague.
4. Web resources:
4.1. Training web pages:
Mr Perron recalled the new layout of the site, including some amendments to the first version, presented in Prague and adopted by the governing board during its 24th meeting in Copenhagen in March 2002. Despite the improvements made, few SAI’s still provide fresh and relevant information on training activities on this site.
Mrs Sorensen, representative of the Danish SAI, wondered if amendments are enough to keep SAI’s interested in the site. Maybe a whole new web site would have to be considered. The Danish SAI is open to give suggestions to this purpose.
a A concrete proposal regarding a new EUROSAI web site, prepared in co-operation between the French and the Danish SAI’s, will be presented during the next ETC meeting.
4.2. Newsgroup on IT:
Mrs Sorensen, representative of the SAI of Denmark, observed that the newsgroup is in use, but, despite of a lot of advertising, not actively. The suggestion is made to give information about the newsgroup to participants during each training session of the LTRTP. Another idea could be to merge the newsgroup into the IDI web site, but those sites have not the same purpose. The training events to come could also give the opportunity to suggest participants to use the forum for further discussion on the topics of the seminars.
Mrs Lopes, representative of the SAI of Portugal, indicated that, as the main objective of the newsgroup is to provide answers to professional questions, the designation, within each SAI, of a correspondent, a contact-person, could be useful: he or she would be responsible for identifying the person(s) able to answer to the questions raised on the forum.
Mr Treen, representative from SIGMA-OECD, underlined, according to his own experience with the SIGMA web site, the cost and the important resources needed for keeping abreast of what is interesting for visitors, and monitoring the site. In the case of SIGMA, the more attractive elements are the front page, the question/answers section, and the library including documentation and technical advice. It is important not to have a static site and to keep abreast of what is useful and relevant on the site and make changes accordingly.
The members of the ETC are requested to think about proposals to improve the use of the newsgroup to be presented during the next meeting. Meanwhile, the opportunity of the training activities ( IDI workshops, training events) will be seized to encourage participants to use the newsgroup for their professional exchanges.
The Danish SAI, responsible for the Newsgroup, will ask to all EUROSAI members to designate a contact-person in each SAI, helping to identify persons able to answer to questions raised on the forum. The SAI of Denmark will also contact the participants from the Golavice Seminar, as it was already decided in Prague.
5. Presentation of SIGMA activities and links with training:
Mr Treen, representative from SIGMA-OECD, made a general presentation of SIGMA activities (pilot audits, peer-reviews, audit activities, audit manuals, PIFC, etc.), led in collaboration with the EU Commission, towards SAI’s and financial administrations of the Central and Eastern Europe candidate countries. Many groups and sub-groups, sometimes overlapping, as well as 27 SAI’s from member states and candidate countries (more than a half of EUROSAI members), are involved in this co-operation. SIGMA staff comes from EU members states SAI’s (Denmark, France, Sweden and UK), and the main part of its resources is provided by the EU Commission.
Many SIGMA activities are related to small scale training. For instance, “pilot audits” may be a very good training tool, were the staff involved being used as trainers, disseminating its experience, on the basis of a “real life” example, to all staff. “Audit activities” and “audit manuals” working groups, set up in co-operation with the ECA, are also good training tools, as a concrete way to exchange audit methodologies, and to promote co-operation on a bilateral basis. However, it remains very important to get even more involvement of members states SAI’s in all the above activities.
The costs in time and money of training should also be underlined. These activities are very expensive. It is necessary to have a significant amount of funding to be ambitious, like IDI for instance. Significant sums are available in the EU Commission for this purpose, but the negotiations are not easy, as IDI will confirm, and time consuming. The ECA could be helpful in these negotiations, and it would be useful to try to interest relevant members of its staff in the ETC activities. The attendees of the meeting agreed this.
SIGMA considers as excellent to establish connections with the ETC, to exchange more information. ETC activities could be displayed more clearly on the SIGMA web site through a more prominent link, and access to it will be provided to ETC participants on request (contact for membership) very easily. Moreover, SIGMA is ready to provide its help for funding applications, if needed. SIGMA also will make a note of this meeting in its next newsletter for the audit manuals working group.
The fragmentation of co-operation activities in Europe through different channels is not a bad thing, if links and some kind of transparent and effective co-ordination exist. Therefore, a level of strategic thinking is required, with a broad approach to the training issue, which must not be limited to courses, but should include all “training type activities”.
6. Training strategy:
Mr Perron, representative of the French SAI, presented the discussion paper aiming at opening the discussion on how to go forward on training strategy, after the resolution adopted during the next EUROSAI Congress in Moscow, and the mandate given to the ETC by the 26th governing board to launch a preliminary study in this area.
In relation with Mr Treen’s remarks on the necessity to widen the scope of the “training” concept, IDI representatives made suggestions, taking into account their experience on strategic planning in other regions of the world, and assuming that the ETC is somehow a kind of task force for EUROSAI strategic planning. They proposed to support, with the help of a process consultant, a two day “brainstorming” session for the participants of the ETC. During this session, the ETC members will be invited to look back at the ETC mandate starting with the mission, the key area results, the goals and objectives, before concentrating on a strategy for capacity building that will lead to an operational plan.
Mr Halasz, representative of the SAI of Hungary, gave his personal experience of the needs assessment carried out in 2000 in the Hungarian SAO in co-operation with the ECA. He underlined the difficulty to identify the real needs, especially in the area of training, and the usefulness of peer-reviews for this purpose. He offered to communicate the report as a contribution to the reflections of the group.
During the general discussion, the participants supported the idea of a “brainstorming” session for the ETC, helping to clarify the ideas and to define what could be the training strategy of EUROSAI in the context of all the groups and sub-groups already playing a role on the external audit European scene. They also emphasised the fact that we are not exactly starting from zero: actions are already under way. Therefore, a preliminary phase of collecting up-to-date information would be useful before the organisation of the “brainstorming” session. Mr Treen suggested that a representative from the ECA could be invited to attend the “brainstorming” session dealing with training strategy.
Taking into account the different views expressed, the following proposals were adopted:
a The SAI of France and Spain will organise, during the last term of this year, a consultation among ETC participants and key partners to gather preliminary information on their views, ideas and actions regarding EUROSAI training strategy. The results of this consultation will be provided to ETC participants by the end of the year ;
a A two day “brainstorming” session, taking into account the results of this consultation, will be organised in January, with the help of IDI, gathering all ETC participants, to agree upon the key elements of a draft training strategy